Assumption or Ordinary Time on Sat night?
  • lmassery
    Posts: 346
    Dear friends,
    Question - this coming August 15 is a Aaturday, and a non-obligatory Solemnity of the Assumption. Is the Saturday evening anticipatory Mass (at 4:30pm) for the 20th Sunday of OT replaced with a Mass for the Assumption? My Ordo booklet is not clear about this
    Thanked by 1AnthonyFok
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    (Cough). This is a topic that the USCCB staff has often fumbled in the past, unevenly, so it's not surprising it's not addressed in the Ordo. (Cough). Normally, a late afternoon Mass would follow the same rules as vespers - so, this ideally would be the propers of the Assumption which has second vespers that would take precedence over the first vespers of 20OT. (I am willing to concede that, if the Saturday evening Mass were more obviously after the normal time for vespers - say, a 9 or 10PM Mass - then it's less clear that it would be resolved this way).

    That said, in practice this will be determined by the celebrant-homilist. If he's preaching on the propers of 20OT, then the readers and musicians should be prepared accordingly and not feel guilty - it's certainly an area where practice has largely gone on autopilot.

    Finally, the determination of propers has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the preceptual obligation: one can fulfill one's preceptual obligation for 20OT while assisting at a Mass that has other propers (be it the Assumption or a ritual Mass).
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    I do not follow,
    Ph
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 899
    My Dutch ordo says:
    - anticipated Mass on Saturday evening: 20th Sunday of Ordinary Time
    - vespers: second vespers of Assumption

    (In the Netherlands, Assumption is an obligatory Solemnity)
  • lmassery
    Posts: 346
    Well last year the consensus on All Saints Day (a Saturday) was that the Saturday evening Mass should be for All Saints, the Sunday for All Souls. So it is probably the same situation.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,026
    Well last year the consensus on All Saints Day (a Saturday) was that the Saturday evening Mass should be for All Saints, the Sunday for All Souls. So it is probably the same situation.

    Except a letter came from my Diocesan Office of Worship which mandated the Mass of All Souls to be said on Saturday Evening (4:00 pm, et seq.). Ask the Diocese. But don't be surprised if they give you one answer and then, in the week before, send out a circular letter saying the opposite -- after the choir/cantors have rehearsed, of-course!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Salieri, your diocese was completely wrong...

    It really ought to be for Assumption...and I won’t rehash the numerous problems that lead to this scenario...does one feast a year create discussion and confusion? It seems like it.
  • In the OF, can a requiem be said on Sunday?

    Sunday for All Souls? Really?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,241
    It definitely should be Assumption on Saturday and back to OT on Sunday. Whether your pastor or diocesan director of worship agrees is another matter. If they disagree, they're still wrong, but the authority is theirs.

    CGZ, yes All Souls can be and does get celebrated on a Sunday in the OF. No Gloria, though.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    While a Mass of Christian Burial can be celebrated on Sundays other than solemnities outside of Advent/Lent/Eastertide, it's very unusual in practice because of restrictions on bination/trination but in cases of grave need could probably be justified.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,897
    According to the Table of Precedence of Days:
    http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/LawText/Index/6/SubIndex/98/LawIndex/36

    a solemnity of our Lady outranks a Sunday in Ordinary Time, so I think OF Masses for the day should be as follows:

    Aug 14 morning: St. Maximilian Kolbe
    Aug 14 evening: Vigil of Assumption
    Aug 15 morning: Assumption
    Aug 15 evening: Assumption
    Aug 16 all day: 20th Sun OT

    (On the other hand, things are different in Advent and Lent, when the Sundays outrank Solemnities of Our Lady.)

    Of course, there may be some reason I'm not taking into account here, and as always, your diocesan directives come first.

    Thanked by 2eft94530 Ihidaya
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Chris, yes, All Souls is obligatory on Sundays. Its religious and cultural value would be lost if transferred. Most people can show up for the Mass for the dead on 2 November, whenever that is, but try explaining that it was moved.

    The Canadian Ordo included a Gloria this past year. Of course someone would...

  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,241
    The Canadians were simply wrong. All Souls is a Mass for the Dead, and a Gloria is never called for in a Mass for the Dead.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    I know they were, but I think the Credo should have been nixed too. That is where the confusion overruled the otherwise obvious, i.e. Mass for the dead= no Gloria.
  • Matthew,

    In the EF (unless I very much misunderstood) All Souls is celebrated on the 2nd, unless this day is a Sunday, and then -- like St. Joseph's and the Annunciation -- it is moved to the nearest available day.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    St Joseph and Annunciation are moved in the OF because Sundays of Lent and Easter have higher precedence. If they fell in Ordinary Time, they'd be celebrated on Sundays.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    In our diocese (San Jose), the rule is hard and fast from the Bishop: after 4 p.m. it must be the Mass of the Sunday, so we sing the Assumption Mass on the Friday evening.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,641
    Same here.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Chris, yes, that is true (and it is moved to 3 Nov., a feria for this reason!) but I was attempting to clarify for you the situation in the OF, which seems untraditional. In fact, white vestments were permitted in part to allow for this (though the rules no longer forbid black on Sundays).
  • Matthew,

    The rules no longer forbid black on Sundays in part because one doesn't exclude what is never considered in the first place: when was the last time you attended an OF Mass at which black vestments were used?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Sure, but most people don’t think like that.

    And last All Souls (have not been to a funeral lately).
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,026
    Whether they are used or not (in the US), they are given as options in the Missal. Since black vestments are considered by the Missal for Masses of the Dead, there is the possibility that that colour might be forbidden by law when the All Souls' falls on a Sunday, which seems to have been the case. The rules now no longer forbid the use of black on Sundays, allowing the full option of colours lawfully permitted for Requiem Mass.
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 226
    Our diocesan liturgy secretary (Arlington, VA) agreed with chonak's reading of the table of precedence, saying that Saturday, August 15, all Masses are for the Assumption regardless of the time, and yes, the evening Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Finally, someone gets it right.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    Part of the problem is confusing what a day is for the purposes of fulfilling preceptual obligations versus what the propers of the liturgical day are as triaged by the table of precedence. The other part of the problem is practical: it tends to be simpler to prepare the same set of propers even if the precedence would indicate otherwise.

    From 2013:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/8207/why-was-the-presentation-of-the-lord-celebrated-in-the-evening-in-rome/p1

  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It depends on the ruling of your particular diocese.

    As far as I am aware, most parishes will maintain the regular vigil mass of the Sunday in the evening, but you may want to contact your diocesan office of worship for confirmation as to what will happen.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 346
    Our pastor pointed out that All Souls day does not have an Evening Prayer I and II, but All Saints day does, that is why All Saints day was celebrated on Saturday last year. But this year, he believes that OT 20 trumps Assumption evening since the diocese is allowing funeral Masses that day.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    The reason they are permitting funerals on Assumption Day is that it's not a day of precept this year in the USA. But that doesn't reduce its precedence (rank 3 in the table of precedence) over a Sunday in Ordinary Time (rank 6 in the table of precedence) in the liturgical calendar.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,241
    Liam is right.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Aug 14 evening: Vigil of Assumption


    Does the Assumption have a vigil Mass?
    O do you mean an anticipated Mass?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    Yes, the Vigil has propers that differ from the Day.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • lmassery
    Posts: 346
    For anyone in the diocese of Cleveland - I have learned that the Bishop believes Assumption should be celebrated on Sat. evening the 15th, and is doing so at the Cathedral, although this info was not publicized in the diocesan memo.
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    Just called our diocese Liturgy office and was told that because FOA is on a Saturday this year and is not a holy day of obligation (rolled into Sunday), the Saturday evening Mass will be 20th Sunday in OT.
  • Ihidaya
    Posts: 10
    Sigh. Chonak [Jul 21] is correct, other rabbit trails notwithstanding.

    With all due respect to local, parish, diocesan, and episcopal conference customs and decrees, the universal law of the Roman Rite takes precedence over all others. This seems not to be an item taught in seminaries these days, nor for the past fifty years.

    In the Ordinary Form, a Solemnity of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Class I, Rank 3) always takes precedence over a Sunday in Ordinary Time (Class II, Rank 6). Chonak gave a link to the pertinent text, but not the citation. The law comes from General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar (1969) by the Congregation for Divine Worship.

    What is pertinent here is the question: "what happens on the evening of the solemnity itself (e.g., Assumption of BVM), when that solemnity falls on a Saturday?" The answer can be found in paragraph 61 of the General Norms:

    61. If the same day were to call for celebration of evening prayer of that day’s office and evening prayer I of the following day, evening prayer of the day with the higher rank in the Table of Liturgical Days takes precedence; in cases of equal rank, evening prayer of the actual day takes precedence.


    This year (2015), Saturday, August 15, and Sunday, August 16, are not of equal rank: the liturgical feast of the Assumption ranks higher than the Sunday in Ordinary Time. Therefore: Vespers or Evening Prayer on Saturday evening, August 15, must be of the Assumption, not of the Sunday. Similarly, any evening Mass (regardless of at what time it begins) must be of the Assumption. Since the "day" of the Assumption does not conclude until midnight (Cf. Can. 202 §1), no anticipated observance of the Sunday is made whatsoever this year.

    Ergo, parish and diocesan liturgical offices that instruct instead that Mass on Saturday evening, August 15, 2015, is to be of the Sunday in Ordinary Time, are quite simply wrong.

    That said, both Liam and JonLaird are correct: even if one participates in Holy Mass on the Saturday evening, one nonethelessfulfills one's "Sunday obligation" - even if the Mass isn't of the Sunday. That's the way the law reads.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,054
    Can you also provide citation for why anticipated Masses are ever allowed on Saturday evening? Since the day begins at midnight all the time (you quoted the canon), and in the modern rite Vepsers I of a solemnity is said to be in the evening of the previous day (you also quoted one place where it implies this), it seems that Mass, before or after any such Vespers, should still be of the day.

    Of course course real problem is the strange practice of saying Mass after Vespers... The old rule which made the liturgical day end after None or Compline, and start at Vespers or Matins, is long gone.
  • WGS
    Posts: 275
    It seems to me that it goes back to "Keep holy the Sabbath Day", with the Sabbath starting at sunset.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 226
    Andrew: it is in the 1983 Canon Law, paragraph 1248:
    A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

    I believe this has nothing to do with the old Sabbath being reckoned from evening to evening, but originally was permitted to allow those not able to attend Sunday Mass for a legitimate reason to still be able to fulfill their obligation. As you can see from the text, however, there is nothing in the canon about a "legitimate" reason, so one would suppose that under the law any reason at all is legitimate, and in theory a faithful Catholic could go an entire lifetime without participating in a single Sunday Mass.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,054
    No, that says that participation on the previous evening satisfies the precept. I wasn't talking about that, but about which Mass is celebrated. By "anticipated Mass" (not really a thing canonically) I meant the practice of saying the Mass of the following day before midnight when the following day actually starts. By "Mass of the day" I mean the proper texts, readings, and rubrical provisions that are governed by what day it is.

    I am sure that you are right, that the canon you quote indeed exists so that anyone impeded from assisting at Mass on the day can still satisfy the obligation.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,366
    the universal law of the Roman Rite takes precedence over all others.

    Where did you not learn canon law?

    A particular law contrary to a universal law takes precedence if it has been legitimately enacted.
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 226
    Ah, I apologize for the misunderstanding. Sunday and holy days are an exception to the midnight-to-midnight rule, according to the Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year and the Calendar:
    3. Each and every day is sanctified by the liturgical celebrations of the People of God, especially by the Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Divine Office.
    The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. However, the celebration of Sunday and of Solemnities begins already on the evening of the previous day.

    So, it seems that a Mass on Saturday evening occurs when the higher-ranking Sunday feast has already begun liturgically -- except, of course, when the Sunday is not in fact higher-ranking.
    60. If several celebrations fall on the same day [I assume this means calendar day], the one that holds the highest rank according to the Table of Liturgical Days is observed.

  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    #60 is the key interpretive tool.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,588
    Fr. Krisman: thus one can have the anniversary of the dedication of a cathedral, parish titular feast, local solemnities, etc. take the place of the Sunday Mass...
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    If it's a Sunday of Ordinary Time.... (For example, iff memory serves, if you don't know the date of dedication of your church, the last Sunday in October is a default choice.)
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    The ordo of the local Benedictine abbey states that on Saturday the 14th, 2nd Vespers of the Assumption will be celebrated, and not 1st Vespers of the Sunday. The Abbey is of the Solesmes Congregation and thus very careful when it comes to liturgy, so I don't even bother checking up on the precedence rules, I trust the monks to make the right decisions :-)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • lmassery
    Posts: 346
    OraLabora - you mean Saturday the 15th?
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    Yes, sorry my mistake.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Well, it seems that Diocese in Australia have ruled that the Saturday evening mass will be the Mass of the Sunday, but all Catholics are required to attend a mass of the Assumption either on Friday Evening or on Saturday during the day. I will probably opt for a Marian Recessional for that evening's mass.
  • RCruz
    Posts: 13
    The evening prayer requirement makes sense given that evening prayer II of the Assumption and evening prayer I of the Sunday are indeed conflicting events and so the laws of precedence need to be called into action. But technically isn't the anticipated mass of Sunday a Sunday event that happens to occur on a Saturday? Thus it technically isn't a conflict at all liturgically speaking and so the anticipated mass would be just that: an anticipated mass of the Sunday that is unaffected by whatever else falls on Saturday (solemnity or otherwise). Just curious......
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    The Mass is classically understood as part - a special part, mind you - of the daily office of prayer. "Anticipation" has to do with fulfilling preceptual obligation, not dispositive of which propers are chosen for it.

    Even the USCCB staff recognized that, when Christmas Day falls on a Saturday, and evening Masses are celebrated (often, in my experience, they are typically cancelled in such an event, as parish staff would like to celebrate their own familial Christmas Day....), the propers of the Mass would of course still be of Christmas Day, not Holy Family. But, if someone assisted at Mass at the Vigil or earlier in the Day, and yet again attended in the evening of the Day, they would fulfill both of their preceptual obligations - even if the propers for both Masses were identical.
  • RCruz
    Posts: 13
    Understood and agreed. But (hypothetically speaking) if Evening Prayer II for the Assumption were celebrated at 3:30 pm then that day would be over, liturgically speaking, and so a Mass held at 4:00 pm would be freed from attachment to that day. Correct?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,565
    I don't think so - that's still very much within the Vespers timetable (as opposed to a Mass after 9PM, for comparison's sake, a time more classically associated with Compline), and there's an argument to be considered that the liturgical day of the Assumption continues until midnight.