questions on the Alleluia verse
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'm in the process of weaning ourselves off OCP's "Respond & Acclaim" materials (Owen Alstott) for the Responsorial Psalm and the Alleluia (or is it properly called the Gospel Acclamation?). In so doing, I've compared its Alleluia verses with those I see as proper to the day in the Gregorian Missal, and have noticed that more often than not they don't correspond to one another. Fr. Weber's propers seem to also align with OCP and not the GM. Is this another Missale-versus-Graduale thing? Are the two Alleluias (so to speak) are as different from one another as the Responsorial Psalm and the Gradual?

    Another question here, while I'm at it: I'm looking on pp. 84–85 of the Parish Book of Chant as possible much-better-quality alternatives to OCP Alleluias. Can someone point me to the best way to understand and interpret the psalm tone notation underneath the Alleluia settings, for use in English? I know there's the introduction to the Liber Usualis, but that seems a bit more oriented towards Latin; I know there's a tutorial on sung readings here on this site, but that specifically addresses the readings and the Gospel, not the Psalms.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > Are the two Alleluias (so to speak) are as different from one another as the Responsorial Psalm and the Gradual?

    Very often, though not always, yes.
  • I've always wondered about that. Sometimes it seems like the text is just random.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,192
    Another interesting observation: In both the GM and the Graduale simplex the verses for the Alleluia (not the Psalmus alleluiaticus) are derived from the Psalms (as with most of the propers found in the GM), and not from Scripture, as is the case with the 3-year Lectionary.

    Curiouser and curiouser.
  • Even the verses given in R&A do not have any particular authority for a given Sunday. If you look in the lectionary the Alleluia verses for Sundays of Ordinary Time are not assigned for each Sunday but are to be taken from a set of verses - there is no definite or official alleluia verse for a particular Sunday (I believe it is different for Sundays of Advent, Lent, Easter and for feasts). So the verses you see in the missalette are simply one of the possible verses that could be sung on that Sunday, whereas the Graduale has definite verses for each Sunday. Again, a disconnect between the lectionary and the Graduale.

    Sam Schmitt
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > If you look in the lectionary the Alleluia verses for Sundays of Ordinary Time are not assigned for each Sunday but are to be taken from a set of verses

    I'm afraid I never saw the original Latin lectionary, but the Portuguese translation does have a verse for every single day in the calendar, including ferial days in Ordinary Time --- plus the seasonal sets intended for those that cannot but stick to just one melody.
  • Odd as it sounds, weekdays do have alleluia verses assigned to them, but not Sundays. I'm looking at a lectionary right now and there is a section entitled "Alleluia for Sundays of the Year" with 13 verses to choose from. The Alleluia for each Sunday refers to this section for the verse.

    Sam Schmitt
  • AlVotta
    Posts: 41
    Valério: I'm Brazilian and our Portuguese lectionary works the same way, though I think we have different lectionaries, or don't we?

    [Curious that we are to be talking in English to each other]
  • AlVotta
    Posts: 41
    [cont] I mean, though in the same language, the lectionaries were separatedly prepared.
  • Mark,

    You have our prayers. Just last week I was in a meeting with staff and when I brought up doing simpler, more musical psalms than the OCP ones only to have another paid musical staff member interrupt, "You mean those CHABANEL ONES." And, forgive me for having to mention this Jeff, it was said in a rather less then appreciative tone.

    The people are not the problem. It's the cantors and organists that resist change.

    The problem in this parish is that they were taught to sing them in a way that slows each cadence of the verses to half speed. So they have no rhythmic flow.

    I am singing a verse and here's THE_____________FIRST____________________CA____________________DENCE,
    and now I am singing the second line which HAS____________A___________________CA_____________________DENCE________________________HERE____________________.

    And the cantors refuse to relearn them....

    The difficulty of singing them causes a large number of flubs that are inappropriate for the Liturgy.
  • And someone, please give the rational behind the Alleluia Verses. What is the rule, where did they come from, and why are they not on the USCCB site with the readings?
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 985
    I had a similar experience, Noel. I've received almost no negative feedback from the congregation about doing Latin Ordinaries. But, boy, did I get flak when we asked the regular choir to sing it! You'd have thought the roof was caving in!

    The congregation is (in general) much more adaptable than the cantor and choir gives them credit for.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,192
    I'm confused . . . are we talking about the current 3-year lectionary for the OF? There is a verse appointed for each Sunday, and for each year cycle for that Sunday, at least in the edition I'm looking at.

    What sources are in question here?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm also curious about the verses. I've put up fights in churches where I sub that the cantor must only sing the proper verse and not Marty Haugen's verse.

    Noel: sounds like it's time for a mandatory cantor workshop! ;)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Frogman, I feel your pain. Part of the problem is the notation. When a professional singer sees 10 eighth notes in a row, he tends to sing them as ten equal eighth notes. Group them with beams, and you get a slight accent on each group. Add a barline, and you get a strong accent on every downbeat. But teach an untrained singer a psalm tone, and then ask them to sing from a text-only edition, and miraculously you get fluent English.

    After three years of trying to get rid of the rest that the congregation adds to the simple Mode VI alleluia, I've finally switched to singing the alleluias from PBC. Eventually, when we've learned an alleluia in each mode, I will start singing the verses (in English, from the American Gradual or another source), but with the simple alleluias.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Sam Schmitt,

    THANK YOU for your post. I have never understood that until now.

    Is anyone else amazed when they read what Sam wrote?

    I am amazed.
  • david andrew and Jeff:

    OK, I was looking at a lectionary published in 1970, and evidently things have changed since then. It looks like the section I was looking at with all the alleluia verses (#164; #163 in the latest edition of the lectionary) serves as a set of "common" verses that can substitute for the "proper" verses (much like a seasonal responsorial psalm can replace the proper resp. psalm) - in short, they're always an option. The rubric says “These texts may be used in place of the texts proposed for each day.” There are similar verses for Advent, Lent, Easter, etc. So it looks like there are proper alleluia verses for each Sunday.

    Having said all that, evidently the lectionary texts (once again) do not match the Graduale. Not too surprising since the texts of the lectionary are based on a three year cycle developed only recently, the Graduale (for the most part) on a yearly cycle dating back centuries.

    Sam Schmitt
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > I mean, though in the same language, the lectionaries were separatedly prepared.

    Yes, lectionaries use different translations. In Brazil you have a translation of the whole Bible approved for Liturgy; in Portugal the bishops tried to have one but were unable to, and lectionaries use ad hoc translations. As far as I know, liturgical books in Brazilian and Portuguese have nothing in common save the responses at Mass (including the Gloria, the Credo, etc.). Even the priest's parts at Mass are differently translated. The Liturgy of the Hours does not even have the same responses. Of course, since both versions are in Portuguese, there are plenty of similar words and phrases.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    A belated "thank you" here to everyone who commented… I learned a lot! (And thank you, too, to those who offered comments on my "does the readings correspond to the music?" thread.)

    Another question, though, on the Alleluia… this time concerning the very familiar Mode VI triple Alleluia (which incantu mentioned above), found on p. 84 of the Parish Book of Chant: What's the source on that? I thought it was from the "Alleluia Simplex" (that is, the compilation of triple Alleluias from the Graduale Simplex, found here), but I don't see it mentioned in that source, nor have I found it elsewhere I've looked.

    Thanks again, in advance!
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    That Alleluia used to be the antiphon for the psalmody of the first Vespers of Easter Sunday (which were sung after communion at the end of what we now call Easter Vigil, but which then took place in the morning, after praying all little hours at once). Check p. 420 of this 1923 Sung Holy Week.

    When Pius XII reformed Holy Week, and sent Easter Vigil back to the night where it had started, that Alleluia became the antiphon for the psalmody of the Lauds of Easter Sunday, which now were to be sung after communion. (Some new Vespers were made up for Saturday.) Check p. 239M of the 1961 Graduale Romanum.

    Currently the Easter Vigil no longer ends with an Office Hour. The current 1974 Graduale Romanum (or its 1979 edition with ancient neums, the Graduale Triplex) recicled this Alleluia, providing it to be sung as communion antiphon of the Easter Vigil. (Formerly there was no communion antiphon at Easter Vigil. The current Graduale also provides for the singing of the communion antiphon of Easter day at Easter Vigil. And of course rubrics allow singing any other communion antiphon from Easter time.) See p. 348 of the Gregorian Missal.

    Using this Alleluia before the Gospel is enjoined by the 1974 Iubilate Deo, prepared by order of pope Paul VI (see p. 12).
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Ah yes, Jubilate Deo, and earlier! What a splendid, rich answer… thank you, dvalerio!
  • It used to be that Easter was the only day that a triple Alleluia was sung. Now we can use it every day of the year if we want (except Lent).
  • One source for at least some of the triple alleluias in the simplex PDF cited by Mark M is the Paschaltide office. For Lauds and Vespers after the Easter Octave, a single antiphon of (usually) triple Alleluias is used in place of the ferial psalm antiphons. Several of these appear in the simplex PDF. The Easter vigil one seems to be based on the familiar Mass dismissal for Easter Day. Perhaps others of these triple alleluias are from the office as well? I'm somewhat familiar with Lauds and Vespers, but not much more of the Divine Office.
  • Yes, that's right..we have gone from gorgeous single alleluias to mundane triples. That's progress, American Catholic style.
  • We have been using the triple alleluias from the "Graduale Simplex" and are
    considering an idea that Msgr. Hellriegel used years ago at the Church of the
    Holy Cross. That is- to concentrate on a few of the more accessible alleluias
    from the Graduale/Liber, singing the proper verse in English on the psalm
    tone. Eventually, all of the people who do sing will start blossoming on the
    'jubilus' right along with the choir. Two of the most accessible are the mode 2
    from Advent I and mode 8 from Christmas Midnight. Later, we will add others.