New Music and what to do with it ?
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Peace and Good,

    First thank you for allowing me to join you all.

    I have recently completed the writing of my very first Mass in Latin, and subsequently one in English.
    The reason for my writing to you all is that I am unable to attend the CMAA colloquium in Pittsburg and it is my understanding that I am unable to have music submitted unless I attend.

    I therefore like to ask for suggestions for what to do with this Mass now that it is completed.
    I understand that there is a process that it needs to go through with the Office of Divine Worship and I already have a handle on that part. But , in getting the music published/Used (performed), is the part that I need direction with.

    I would appreciate your input.

    THank you in advance.

    Pax et Bonum,
    Mark

  • bonniebede
    Posts: 752
    Post it here, with a creative commons licence so anyone can use it :-)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,147
    Mark, any music you might have submitted would have been for the New Music Reading Session at the Colloquium. In addition to gaining exposure of your music, you would have been able to benefit from sincere, constructive (as well as appreciative) comments that attendees might make. The next best thing, given that you cannot attend, would be to follow bonniebede's suggestion and post your works here. Alternatively, you could also submit your works to CPDL for publication (and free downloads) to an even wider audience.

    On a somewhat different, although related note:

    After having been a "lurker" here for some time, I finally joined the CMAA in 2011, shortly before the Colloquium that year, although it was not possible for me to attend. I was both surprised and heartened that the Recessional Hymn for the first Mass was Vaughan Williams "Come Down, O Love Divine" that used my two-part (double) descants. Since then, various factors have made it impossible for me to attend any Colloquium yet, most recently my wife's partial nephrectomy last June 20th to remove a renal cell carcinoma.

    Sadly, once again this year major surgery for my wife coming up on June 17th means that it is impossible to attend the Colloquium in Pittsburgh. I had hoped to attend this year, bringing along a couple of works to be read at the New Music Reading Session in celebration of my 75th birthday on July 2nd, as well as getting to meet, at long last, many friends and colleagues. Instead, however, I assure everyone that my thoughts and prayers will be with all those who are able to attend and participate in this wonderful event.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    I have a different kind of question related to ICEL.
    I have written a Mass for the OF, and It has been sent to ICEL and they have given their blessing for it to be used. HOwever, here is the thing I am just not getting and possibly one of you can explain it to me.. The OK to use it was given, but then they tell me not to publish it for money. Then say not to sell it because I need to let them know how many copies and for how much it will be sold. It feels like a catch 22 in that I wont know how many I sell unless I do so, and I really have not decided what I will sell it for.. which is something I am working out and if I approach one of the big publishers do they handle all that ?

    Thanks in advance..
    Mark
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    which is something I am working out and if I approach one of the big publishers do they handle all that ?


    Publishers handle that stuff for you. They do not need (or want) composers to attempt to deal with copyright issues themselves.

    ICEL allows use of their stuff for free if you give your their-stuff-using stuff for free. They want to be paid if you get paid. (Even though I am anti-copyright in principle, this seems completely reasonable to me.)

    If you want to self-publish for money, figure out what you want to charge and ask ICEL what you should do. The "how many do you plan to sell" thing applies to traditional publishing, where you print a bunch of something all at once. If you plan to sell it as a Print-on-demand or digital download, just tell them that. They will let you know how to pay them.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    I feel like a broken record.. OK once again I come seeking a bit of insight.

    So I am now squared away with the Folks at ICEL, now the Office of Divine Worship is requesting some corrections to my Missa Brevis, in two areas. The first I think I can easily fix by way of example ( Thank you JS Bach) the second issue might be more prevelent. Here it is..

    Regarding the TEXT of the parts of the Mass, there seems to be an issue with the WHERE of where I split the word and attached them to different notes. For instance,

    In my text, in the Agnus Dei, the word "TOLLIS" I split across 3 or 4 individual notes.
    In the text it shows "TO--LLIS" and the ODW seems to want it split as " TOL-LIS "

    In my musical brain, the intent is not to have the first L - in the first syllable in order that the mouth/throat /air passage etc is closed in the process. My split, I believe has valid musical reasons for being there.. I am of course fully aware that the liturgical/theological rules trump the musical need. Of course in the end all I really want is to put my work in the service of God, ergo......

    I need to know if there is some kind of official , church sanctioned, rubber stamped, syllabification table that I should be using in the editing of my setting ?

    Thank you AGAIN,

    Mark
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,147
    It's TOL-LIS, plain and simple.
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Ok thank you, but , it really does not answer the question.. the answer is plain but far from simple I would imagine. although you seem to be correct in your answer, it does not really tell me what I need to know. I am seeking a bit of understanding and a guide for the remainder of the text in all the mass parts. And if possible some type of understanding as to the WHY it is split there and maybe some kind of rhyme or reason to the whole thing.. Can you provide a bit more ?

    Thank you :)
    Mark
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    OK Charles, so what I got from looking through the thread (skimmed) was that basically there are some rules that apply whose intent it is to direct the vocal sound of the choir.

    i.e. Charles ( in the second link ) states the following :
    "In my experience, you're exactly right, and it IS intentional.

    When I've written Latin chants, I usually move the consonants over to the next syllable, as a visual cue that the vowel is to be as long as possible. I describe to the schola that "the vowels make it music, the consonants make it words." Especially with consonants such as R or M or N, it's entirely possible to make those way too long. And "firrrrrrrma" sounds totally different than "fiiiiiiiiiiiirma." "

    This would seem to me to indicate that musical style is ultimately the intent as opposed to something hard and fast rule.

    Do you know if there is a complete "body of syllabalized text" without the need for me to type each word in individually ?


  • In terms of double letters, it seems they are always split. Otherwise, simply visually, we don't know what to do with them (Welsh or Spanish singers would also misread double-L, right?
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    ROmantic Strings , that makes sense I understand in some romance languages the LL would sound like Y instead of L.. or even the rr would be "rolling" away.. LOL..
    I didnt think that Latin had that issue with the single exception possibly of the rules for the c's/ch sounds.
  • My experience is that texts conform to standard syllabication rules and it is our job as choir directors to teach our choirs how to sing these words properly. Sor-row is a very common problem: I have them mark their scores and sing "Sah - roh" so they don't sing or sustain the 'r' in the first syllable. I hope this is helpful.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Well I do understand the premise. To avoid the singing of the extended R- it made sense to me to write it with the consonants on the right side of the 2 notes, as it were. A friend of mine who sings and leads a schola tells me that " a good choir " would already understand this to be true.." and sing it regardless of the way its written. I suppose I suffer from the idea that it should be sung how its written.

    Also, please pardon me for dragging through what is obviously a previous discussion. I am a classically trained musician, but the idiosyncrasies of Church Latin and text rules are not in my realm of experiences.

    I had several of the same kinds of experiences while churning through the NO Mass setting where the capitalizations in the text make NO sense to me at all.

    But I digress.. :)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    It's odd to have syllabification rules for text which don't really correspond to pronunciation in either speech or singing.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,465
    And for English:

    It's odd to have spelling rules for text which don't really correspond to pronunciation in either speech or singing.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    OK I am taking the bull by the horns with this syllabification schtuff.. and I am pulling my hair out ( I dont have all that much left to begin with) because FINALE is sticking hypens in all over the place and I cant seem to get it to stop.. Any suggestions on how to get it to cooperate ?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,889
    It can be maddening when a computer or program second-guesses you, but do we understand what you mean? It's quite usual to see
    hy   -    -    - phen in music and a bit jarring to instead come across
    hy-               phen.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Well for instance over the two words " Et ascendit" The Et is one eighth note and the "asc" is the second eight note.. and I cant seem to get the silly thing to separate them..

    is that more understandable the text should be "et asc-en-dit" but when I enter it , it comes out Et-asc-en-dit. It really is maddening.. LOL


    Thank you all for sharing.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,889
    Ah, you'll need the help of a Finale expert. Sibelius will sometimes give Eta-scen-dit, usually correctable with "reset note spacing"; I'm really not sure what would happen with the hyphen after asc- though ;-)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    I wonder if Sibelius oops I mean Finale is trying to apply English rules for syllabification to the Latin text. In that case, you might have to turn off the automatic hyphenation, unless the program also has rules for Latin.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,889
    Chonak, that sounds like a clever guess at what may be BrBearOFS' problem with Finale.

    Si-be-li-ushasanan-noy-ingwayofpri-o-ri-tiz-ing space for hyphens above spaces between words, not nearly as bad in newer versions. I haven't tried the automated hyphenation feature yet.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,291
    you can add your own hyphenation (at least in sib) by simply typing the syllable and then hitting the hyphen key and then the next syllable. You can also auto enter the text and let it put in the hyphens. When finished, simply delete the wrong words and enter them manually. you can also move the hyphens into the middle of a blank space manually with drag and drop. (i was an ambassador [did training workshops] for sib years ago)
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 63
    I have Finale 2007 and use it on occasion. I usually add lyrics using the direct "type into score" method.

    I cannot seem to make it add unwanted hyphens, so I don't know how you got to where you are; but if you already have the syllables themselves on the appropriate notes, you could try this (presuming some continuity between version 2007 and whatever you have):

    1. Click on the lyrics button
    2. Choose the "lyrics" item that should have just appeared in the menu bar
    3. Choose "edit lyrics"
    4. In the dialog box, replace any unwanted hyphens with spaces, then pick OK.

    If the lyrics go crazy on you (this happens sometimes, especially when trying to make corrections) I have also found the Edit Lyrics dialog box useful for erasing all of them and starting afresh.
  • JDE
    Posts: 584
    Don't use "type into score." Type the lyrics in the lyrics window and use click assignment. You'll be much happier with the results.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood eft94530
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Well all, thank you for input, I wanted to share that I wrote an email to the folks at Make Music (Finale) and they were kind enough to suggest that I install the 30 day trial of the full version of Finale to get into the lyrics editing window ( I am using Finale Notepad as I dont have a school or church that is making that affordable for me at this moment.. )
    I downloaded the trial and VIOLA ! the lyrics edit window opened and the angels sang !
    I am now free to edit..

    JDE I was actually entering with the lyrics tool and not type but was actually getting to the point where I was considering it if I couldnt find another result..

    I know the Colloquium is going to happen next week.. I am sorry I wont get a chance to come and meet some of you (if your going)..

    I will let you know how it all pans out.. :) I am almost sure there will be other questions !

    Peace,

    Mark
  • JDE
    Posts: 584
    Mark, sorry I missed the detail that you were using Notepad rather than the full version. I've been using Finale since around 1996, so it's like second nature to me at this point. The lyrics window is a lot better than the type into score method IMHO, so I hope you can find a way to secure the full version for yourself.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Greetings again!.. Now I have a new question.. ( told you I would :)

    So after a month or so of discussions with the USCCB on the subject of getting the approvals needed for liturgical use of my Missa Brevis, they sent me letter informing me that they did not have jurisdiction over the use of the Latin Mass text and that I would need to get approval from the Libreria Editrice Vaticana office of the Vatican as they owned the copyright for the text.

    I sent them am email and today recieved a response saying No, I need to address this with the USCCB ... I forwarded that response back to the Office of Divine worship..

    Have any of you gone through this before and from whom did you get the appropriate approvals ?

    Thanks again :)
    Mark
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Oh and one other question on a bit of research to solidify my own understanding on one point. In the Music there are a couple of places where a particular syllable is split or stretched over a couple of notes.. I was looking through some music to find some examples.. and was looking for some examples .. any ideas ?

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    would need to get approval from the Libreria Editrice Vaticana office of the Vatican as they owned the copyright for the text.


    The Latin Ordinary is in the Public Domain.
    As is most of the Proper.

    If you self-publish, none of this will matter.
    If a commercial publisher picks up your stuff, they'll take care of it.

    Worry about your music, not copyright on texts.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    Like he said.

    On the other question: in the Gregorian chant Mass ordinaries, you can find chants that are syllabic (one note per syllable), or neumatic (some syllables have melodic gestures of more than one note -- i.e., from two up to several) or melismatic (some syllables have extended melodies).

    This Pater noster is mostly syllabic:
    http://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=3326

    This Agnus Dei (Agnus Dei VIII) is a neumatic chant:
    http://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=2760

    This Kyrie (Kyrie III) is a melismatic chant:
    http://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=825
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    Adam Wood, Thank you for your response..

    Chonak - a point in each of these.. is good but my question for instance.. the split in the syllable over notes would be for instance..
    Tollis is traditionally split Tol-Lis.. however, there might be places where we want to take the LIS and split that over say.. LI on one or two notes and the S on the ending note.. or something of that ilk. the syllable is a bad example but maybe transubstatialem the ending syllable is -alem and the A is separated from the LE and even possibly the M..

    Does that make the question clearer ?

    Thank you again..
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,147
    ... there might be places where we want to take the LIS and split that over say.. LI on one or two notes and the S on the ending note.
    No, not at all. This is counter to standard text underlay for a final syllable that extends over several notes. The traditional and accepted method (already a part of engraving programs, such as Finale and Sibelius) is to have "word extensions" in the form of an underscore that starts where the final syllable ends and runs to the beginning of the final note assigned to that syllable. To do it otherwise will only confuse and (probably greatly) annoy musicians trying to follow or to sing the text.
    ... the ending syllable is -alem ...
    No, that is the final TWO syllables; the ending syllable is "-lem" (or "-em" depending upon your hyphenation predilections).

    When in doubt, consult an authoritative reference, such as "Behind Bars" by Elaine Gould, p. 447:
    An extender, a line of stave-line thickness, follows a final syllalable or monosyllabic word that extends beyond one written note, including a tied note.

    The line extends to the last written note, but not to the end of the duration. Any puncuation goes at the end of the word, before the extender.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    Maybe it would help to show a measure or two from the draft score you're working with. If you don't have a scanner, you might be able to photograph a measure or two with a cell-phone camera.
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    I think I have found "the error of my ways :) I spent some time reviewing Masses from Lizst, Beethoven, Byrd etc.. and it seems pretty uniform for all of them save one.. which I will sum up to either one of the predilections mentioned above. I am making those changes to fall in uniformity with that standard. It does make me ponder ( possibly its just my own head banging,) but I wonder why it is, that if everyone agrees, that the rules of the text do not correlate strictly speaking to the musical expression, if there were not some discussion about such things to allow for the expression as long as it did not take away from the text of the Mass or its technical needs..

    I suppose the questions would be clearer with an example to view.. and of course I am sure there will be more to come ...
  • BrBearOFS
    Posts: 21
    OK so, I thought I would share with you all, that after a couple of months of running in circles, the USCCB finally has concluded that there is no need for further review of the Missa Brevis I completed and have told me I am all set to go. They also mentioned that their final word on the matter was that there was no permissions needed for the Latin Masses, however if one were to have a "fit of piety" there could be an imprimatur along side of another item whose name I forget .. ( not Nihil Obstat. it was Cum something or other).. from the local ordinary, but not a necessary step. So for all intents and purposes I am finally done with the permissions guantlet for my set of masses. I am very much relieved, and happy I can now begin to concentrate on writing the next Mass..

    Again, I wanted to thank you all for your input and educational assistance. It is greatly appreciated.
  • Do you need to go through this process just for a hymn group or can you submit directly to places like OCP? I have written several and tried them with (no surprise) rejection. I think my stuff was too introspective rather than collective and not "Catholic" enough. I have a new group with psalms as the basis to overcome any problems of being too personal or sounding too evnagelical.
  • Heartfeltsong,

    "this process" -- do you mean the process of getting a text approved?

    On the other point, introspective would get text rejected, unless it was introspective to the point of navel-gazing. in which case it would be warmly welcomed.

    "Sounding too evangelical"? This would be cause to publish it, at OCP, unless "evangelical " means something other than "something we cans sell to Protestant churches".
    Thanked by 1Heartfeltsong
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    HFS, if you're sending your music to a publisher of Catholic church music, you can let them deal with getting church approval. If you start publishing your works yourself, then you can contact the office of the vicar general of your diocese to find out how the process works there.
    Thanked by 1Heartfeltsong
  • Chris, I was referring to the comments by BrBear about CMAA and ICEL which seem to be controlling what music is published. I don't know what they are or if involvement with them is necessary as BrBear seems to indicate. I can only suppose it applies to him because he wrote an entire Mass.
    I was just guessing at why my hymns might have been rejected. I have no feedback. I just thought since it could be any of the reasons I listed my next group should be something more generic.
    As for OCP, I am most familiar with that because of using their publication for over 20 years. (Not that I had a choice.) I like a lot of the music in their missalettes. As with anything they do have some stinkers. Using Protestant hymns doesn't upset me as it seems to upset you. Many are lovely, although I've never been able to warm to Amazing Grace.
    Sounding Evangelical means to me sort of being too emotional and dramatic outside a solo format, and dealing with personal doubts.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    Big publishers like OCP probably get a lot of new music submissions, certainly more than they can take on as projects, so if they turn down something you've submitted, that doesn't mean much.

    If you're looking for feedback about your work, that's probably something to try to get locally, from musicians (composers and performers) working in the same style as your compositions. You can certainly post something here for comment (under the "new compositions" category), and probably get useful observations about technical aspects of the composition, but when the commentary gets into subjective aspects, you'll need to take some of that with a grain of salt.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,147
    Heartfeltsong, are your works texts or music or both? Since you didn't say "composed" or "compositions" I was under the impression you were talking about hymn texts, not hymn settings.
  • Full monty CHG..text;melodic line;keyboard accompaniment in most cases. Occassionally guitar and occassionally chorale 4 part . It's tough for me because I can't play keyboard well enough to accompany myself so I use Songwriter which allows me to hear it all. I can't seem to write simply enough for my shabby playing ability. I keep the range parameters between A below middle C and D above C2 unless I'm doing a solo piece.
    One piece is a cappella chant for the Exultet text in OCP before 2013 just because I sang it for almost 19 years every Easter and like it. (I didn't tell anyone I was doing my own thing. Once it was sung it was a done deal and we kept it.)I'm only claiming copyright for the melody there. One other uses the traditional melody of Simple Gifts but the text and arrangement is mine--it was for a Kateri contest and the melody was stipulated. They said they wanted something that combined Indian and Catholic sentiment so I wrote Hymn to the Great Spirit God for voice, flute and drum. A traditional 4 part chorale with organ extolling the Trinity won. Go figure. Nothing American Indian about that.
    My new "album" is much improved over the first one. I'm starting to get the hang of writing for keyboard. Once I have the copyright registered I may post some of them.
  • Sorry for the delay CHG. I had posted this then it looked like it went thru and then it disappeared and I was told to sign in again. I had misplaced the password but I'm all set now.