Has anyone created a "white list" for their parish?
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 802
    I know several of you work in parishes where you are forced to use the available music resource from OCP, etc. and are not in a position to switch to a different hymnal or introduce propers (yet). Have you taken the time to create a "white list" of usable hymns and songs that might serve as a model for other parishes in a similar situation.

    Every parish I've worked in has used GIA hymnals, so I am less familiar with the OCP catalog besides the usual cross-overs that appear in every book.

    I know of several priests who would like to give a resource like this to their parish musicians to start improving the situation without rocking the boat too much. Specifically these would be parishes where the musicians don't know any better and are stuck in the rut of selecting several hymns each Sunday from the publisher's suggestion list.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 985
    I created my own some years back, but never tried to propagate it to other parishes. It doesn't make the music selection job real easy, though. Probably the most powerful thing would be to start a mailing list, sending out hymn suggestions similar to OCP's, a month in advance. THAT could actually compete with OCP's, and each person could use it to the degree it's comfortable. You could even include options for Public Domain selections, for those who can take advantage of it.

    Fortunately I'm no longer in an OCP parish, so I don't have to deal with it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    I would consider doing this re: GIA. Wouldn't know about OCP. Which do you need?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,850
    It might be worthwhile for the music director to sit down for an afternoon and go through everything in the given book, to catalog what's in it, and decide how many of the songs are usable. If half the songs in a book are unacceptable, then it would seem the other half are at least minimally tolerable. Perhaps 10% or so are very suitable for use: that's a place to start.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Why not just use everything the US bishops have approved?

    [\sarcasm]
  • TCJ
    Posts: 638
    I made a list like that at the previous parish I worked at. They used WLP. I think I posted it on here a long time ago.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,084
    My GIA hymnal, soon to be replaced by another GIA hymnal, breaks down roughly as follows:

    One third good
    One third mediocre
    One third unusable.

    YMMV, but that is how it works out for me. I have a mental "white list" but haven't put it on paper. Maybe white lists are like Vatican secrets, never acknowledged or revealed. In practice, all of us probably have them.
    Thanked by 1JDE
  • JDE
    Posts: 584
    I have a mental "white list" but haven't put it on paper. Maybe white lists are like Vatican secrets, never acknowledged or revealed. In practice, all of us probably have them.

    There's a written Torah and an unwritten Torah . . . and I couldn't agree more about the GIA hymnal we currently use. As much as it pains me to write this, the competing hymnal from OCP is far superior musically because the one we're using has a boatload of songs that are unison -- IN THE CHOIR BOOK. It's very frustrating. The OCP hymnal has parts for nearly every item.
    Also - I presume every one of us who has directed music for a parish has a mental whitelist. One couldn't survive without some sort of filter.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,192
    Many parishes hooked into the OCP products more likely use their disposable resources (Breaking Bread, Today's Missal, Music Issue, etc.). This alone creates the obvious problems - the content can change at the whim of the editors with the constant dropping and adding of material, and even if a particular hymn or text reappears, sometimes the editors will change the tune (familiar text/new tune) or change the text (familiar tune/altered text). Those who have made the switch from GIA's RitualSong to Worship IV are likely familiar with this phenomenon as well, and so even a hardbound resource can become a difficulty to be worked through.

    Everyone has their own way of selecting music, and no two people are going to agree on the process. I was going to present my formula and philosophy for choosing things, but I haven't the time or the patience for the inevitable dog pile that it would create here. If you'd like my perspective on this topic, please feel free to send me a PM, and I'd be happy to share my thoughts.

    Ultimately I think there are too many variables, from the resources available for the use of the parish and DM all the way to the particular guiding philosophy and principles the DM uses to make their selections.

    I seem to recall from teaching Catholic Music history that a group tried to develop a "white list" back in the 50's, and what we were left with was a menu of gruel and milksop that was "safe". It was also bland, colorless and uninspiring.

    This group is, I would hope, made up of folk who have committed themselves to dealing with these issues in creative ways, based on their individual circumstances and make their choices in intelligent and fruitful ways. CMAA is about core principles and working toward a goal of truly beautiful and transformative sacred music in the Mass, not about blindly following the opinion of a select few. Learn the principles and apply them as best you can. When we begin relying on the opinions of others (especially as expressed in a "white list") we fall into a trap no different than the folk who go to the vendor's hall after a showcase or a "liturgy" and simply buy up what was being presented as the newest and best, or who buy everything from one publisher and use their supplemental magazine to make their selections rather than making it a thoughtful process based on momentum and advancement rather than inertia and stasis.

    As always, YMMV.

    Remember, I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together.

    Thanked by 2Spriggo Earl_Grey
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 802
    All good points.

    Being that I'm now in a position where I have priests asking me for musical advice, I was hoping to offer some kind of tool that would serve as a starting point. My suggestion to this particular pastor was to invest in a hard-bound pew missal first, and then slowly--very slowly, work to improve the hymn/song selections. This pastor wanted to simply invest in a new hymnal, but I think that would likely backfire if done too hastily. Also, I really like the concept of a separate Mass-book (such as the Lumen Christe or Jogues) and hymnal as it more clearly shows which texts are necessary and intrinsically part of the Mass, and which are devotional additions (pious or otherwise).

    Like I mentioned above, I am more acquainted with GIA's hymnals than the other publishers. I suppose a complete white list is quite impractical, and such a list would be unique to each parish--but I imagine there could be a short list usable orthodox songs and hymns--both traditional and contemporary that could serve as a starting point for an inexperienced parish music director who doesn't look beyond the suggestions offered in Today's Liturgy. Perhaps it would be more practical for the pastor to create his own "black list" or songs he would like not to be used in his parish.

    I realize I'm treading on thin ice here, since I have served under pastors who have essentially blacklisted all Latin and Gregorian Chant based on their personal preferences (or the opinions of major donors). However, I think that a good pastor should be able to forbid songs that don't support the Faith or the Liturgy--at least until we get that approved list from the Bishops. ;)
  • TCJ
    Posts: 638
    A lot of it depends on your pastor. Where I used to work my white list was fully approved by the first pastor but the pastor who came along immediately after wouldn't have approved of it one bit, therefore I never showed it to him. Because of the tendency for parishes to switch pastors very, very often, it's hard to keep just one way of doing things because each one will have his own things to tell you to do (or not do).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Somewhere in the forum, I posted a spreadsheet of one year's Breaking Bread contents, with simple A-F grading, a brief commentary. It's on another hard drive and I'm out of town, so I can't repost it. Maybe Chonak could dig it up. It's dated probably about 5-6 years.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    I remember that, Melo. It was a good read.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 294
    If you're looking for a good starting point in creating a "white list," I found 3 good articles on CNP that have helped me:
    "Core Hymnody": http://canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art241.htm (beware, some of the "ecumenical hymns" may not be suitable from a Catholic doctrine standpoint)
    "CNP Feedback: Contemporary Hymns": http://canticanova.com/articles/feedback/artep1.htm (granted, this one is a bit dated, going back to 2002)
    And most recently:
    "Hymns and Masses for Schools" (compiled by AFPC): http://canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art2n1.htm (while intended for those preparing school Masses, I think this serves as a great starting point for developing a body of core hymnody in a parish as well)
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    This is my "white list" from Worship III.

    Although I think there are a few good things missing from it (I culled it from a single year's records and some things might not have come up that year), I believe it doesn't have anything amiss--and would be a good place to start.

    #355 When the King Shall Come Again
    #356 On Jordan’s Bank
    #357 O Come, O Come, Emanuel
    #359, People, Look East
    #363, Lift Up Your Heads
    #367 O Come, Divine Messiah
    #368 Creator of the Stars of Night
    #370 Comfort, Comfort, O My People
    Wake, O Wake
    #372 Savior of the Nations, Come
    #374 Lo, How a Rose E’er Blooming
    #376 Angels We Have Heard on High
    #379 Silent Night
    #386 O Little Town of Bethlehem
    #387 Hark, the Herald Angels Sing
    #391 Good Christian Friends, Rejoice
    #392 O Come, All Ye Faithful
    # 398 Of the Father’s Love Begotten
    #399 Joy to the World
    #400 It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
    #402 Once in Royal David’s City
    #403 Virgin-born, we bow before You
    # 406 We Three Kings of Orient Are
    #408 The First Nowell
    # 409 As with Gladness Men of Old
    # 410 Songs of Thankfulness and Praise
    # 411 What Child Is This
    #414 Hear Us, Almighty Lord
    #417 Lord, Who throughout
    #419 Forty Days and Forty Nights
    #420 Again We Keep this Solemn Fast
    #422 The Glory of These Forty Days
    #423 Jesus, Remember Me
    # 428 All Glory, Laud and Honor
    #430 Hosanna in Excelsis
    #434 O Sacred Head Surrounded
    #437 Sing, My Tongue
    #442 Jesus Christ Is Ris’n Today
    #443 Regina Coeli
    #445 I Know that My Redeemer Lives
    #450 Be Joyful, Mary
    #451 The Strife Is O’er
    #453 Now the Green Blade Rises
    #456 Come, Ye Faithful
    #457 That Easter Day with Joy Was Bright
    #458 This Is the Feast of Victory
    #459 At the Lamb’s High Feast
    #463 Christ the Lord Is Risen
    #464 The Head That Once Was Crowned
    #467 Sing with All the Saints in Glory
    #469 A Hymn of Glory
    #471 Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise
    #472 Come Down, O Love Divine
    #482 Come, Holy Ghost
    #484 O God, Almighty Father
    #485 Holy, Holy, Holy
    #486 God, Whose Almighty Word
    #487 Come Now Almighty King
    #488 Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All
    #489 Adoro Te Devote
    #492 Jesus Shall Reign
    #493 Rejoice, the Lord is King
    #494 All Hail the Power of Jesus’ Name
    #496 Crown Him with Many Crowns
    #497 To Jesus Christ, our sovereign King
    #499 At the Name of Jesus
    #500 Christ Is the King
    #502 I Sing the Mighty Power of God
    #512 Immortal, Invisible God Only Wise
    #520 All Creatures
    #521 From All that Dwell Below the Skies
    #523 Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence
    #524 Holy God, We Praise Thy Name
    #525 Joyful, Joyful, We Adore You
    #530 Praise, My Soul
    #532 Sing to the Lord a Joyful Song
    #534 Tell Out My Soul
    #535 God We Praise You
    #541 O God Beyond All Praising
    #543 Christ Is the World’s Light
    #547 Praise to the Lord, the Almighty
    #550 Sing a New Song to the Lord
    #558 Father, We Thank Thee Who Has Planted
    #559 Let All Things Now Living
    #560 Now Thank We All Our God
    #568 Lord of All Hopefulness
    #572 We Walk by Faith
    #571 Faith of Our Fathers
    # 577 By Gracious Powers
    #579 O God, our help in ages past
    #580 Seek Ye First
    #588 Love Divine, All Loves Excelling
    #595 There’s a Wideness in God’s mercy
    #600 What Wondrous Love
    #601 Beloved, Let Us Love
    #604 Ubi Caritas
    #606 My Shepherd Will Supply My Need
    #607 I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say
    #609 The King of Love My Shepherd Is
    #618 O Christ, the great foundation
    #634 Take Up Your Cross
    #662 On This Day, the First of Days
    #669 All People That on Earth Do Dwell
    #690 Jerusalem, my happy home
    #702 Hail, Holy Queen
    #704 Lift High the Cross
    #707 Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones
    #725 O Breathe on Me, O Breath of God
    #728 Shepherd of Souls
    #732 Draw Near and Take the Body of Your Lord
    #733 At That First Eucharist
    #737 Alleluia, Sing to Jesus
    #738 I Am the Bread of Life
    #759 Come, Ye Thankful People, Come
    (#763 America the Beautiful)
    (#764 God of Our Fathers)

    (Please ignore hashtags. Those are just number signs.)
    Thanked by 2Earl_Grey CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That was very sharp of you to point that out, we having so many new symbols pound into the modern lexicon. ;-)
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood JDE Kathy
  • This is my "white list" from Worship III.
    Good choices.

    Of the 116 hymns listed, 106 also appear in Worship IV.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Melofluent, I noticed in your commentary on the Breaking Bread contents that Walker's "Passion Acclamation" is not licit for usage. My pastor is wanting us to use a different acclamation at various points during the reading of the passion narrative this year. Could you (or someone else on the forum) point me to the document that forbids this practice? Thanks!
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,804
    FWIW, Paschalis Sollemnitatis (1988) at #33 (reiterated for Good Friday at 66) provides:

    "The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the parts of Christ, the narrator and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest."

    There's no provision for the congregation to take part as such. So no acclamations. It's a Gospel reading: the limited permission for non-clerics to participate as lectors is an unusual exception. That probably won't convince your pastor. A lot of people think the Passion needs "breaking up" into "digestible" sections. I would counter that the Church rather thinks that a deep and deliberate immersion is what the congregation is being invited to.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWEASTR.htm
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    But it doesn't SPECIFICALLY SAY we can't wear pirate costumes and carry giant styrofoam parrots. So it must be allowed.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,463
    You can always count on Wood to add some sanity to a thread....
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    image
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160

    WHAT ABOUT A "BLACK LIST?"
    Lead me, guide me
    If God is for us
    Soon and very soon
    Wade on the water
    Precious Lord
    In Christ there is no east or west
    There is a balm in Gilead
    Were you there?
    etc.
    How'sabout a "Brown List"
    Amen: El Cuerpo de Cristo
    Ang Katawan ne Cristo
    Pan de Vida
    Pescador
    And a Braveheart Blue List?
    Kelvingrove
    St. Patrick's Breastplate
    Slane
    Kingsfold
    St. Columba
    ....
    Or a rainbow list?
    Oops, I've gone too far, nevermind....
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    And what about the 39% of Worship IV that is completely unuseable?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,610
    Does a hymnal have to have only music worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Or may it not also have devotional hymns and music for prayer groups, social gatherings, etc.? Perhaps Worship IV sees itself as a total-parish resource, for both the Mass and for other events in the life of the parish.

    A hymn that you might not use as a Recessional Hymn at your 11am Solemn Mass might be fine for a hymn to gather outside before a service to bless animals/pets.

    If your social justice group wants to end their meetings with We Are Called but love the Gregorian chant you do on Sunday, should you try to put a stop to them ending their meetings that way?
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    What is amazing about some particular hymnals is the sheer volume of texts whose unusability, even for pet-oriented social functions, is evident in the very first line.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Gavin
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    And what about the 39% of Worship IV that is completely unuseable?

    Well, Kathy, you have already produced one list with 116 entries. Thanks for what must have taken a good amount of time to compile. But do you really mean to imply that City of God, Jerusalem; Come, O Long Expected Jesus; Come, Lord, and Tarry Not; Unto Us a Boy Is Born; A Child Is Born in Bethlehem; Infant Holy; Sing of Mary; The God Whom Earth and Sea and Sky; What Star Is This; When John Baptized by Jordan's River; Parce Domine; At the Cross Her Station Keeping; The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came; The Great Forerunner of the Morn; Salve Regina; For All the Saints; By All Your Saints Still Striving; Immaculate Mary; O Sanctissima; Ave Maria; Around the Throne a Glorious Band; O Food of Exiles Lowly; Ave Verum; Eat This Bread; Forgive Our Sins; O Salutaris; Tantum Ergo; and hundreds of other titles from Worship III are unacceptable for Catholic worship just because either you never used them or you chose not to include them on your "white list"? From my understanding of this discussion "white list" is a broader category than "things I personally like" or "things that I have used."

    Worship IV has 1229 musical entries. So, in order to back up your claim that "39% of Worship IV is completely unuseable," your next list will have 479 entries; or 240 entries, if you are only referring to the 614 entries in the hymn section. Of course, you have already made such a list in order to come up with the "39%" figure. I would be interested in seeing it.
    Thanked by 2MarkThompson Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Fr. Krisman, as I mentioned regarding my WIII white list, it was only for a given year and some might be missing. Thank you for your great list, which rounds mine out admirably. I would omit Eat this bread, Forgive our sins, and verse 3 of O food of exiles lowly. As Catholics we don't believe the Lord is "all hid beneath this bread." And add, doubtless among several others, See amid the winter's snow.

    A white list does not imply a black list. What was requested was a handy list of unquestionably good music.

    Only 240 unuseable hymns in Worship IV? That should not be too difficult. One should begin with the newly written hymns of the day, and then the nonsense pop fluff, and then see where we are.

    Contrary to Matthew's dream world, wherein hymnals are regularly carted over to the parish hall for social functions, hymnals are used primarily at Mass. The source and summit of the Christian life deserves the very best and most suitable art.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    Re: vs. 3 of "O Food of Exiles Lowly," Worship IV (no, 557) has altered Worship III's "all hid beneath this bread" (which had been the wording used in The New Saint Basil Hymnal) to "now veiled in heav'nly bread."
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    That doesn't really work, Fr. Krisman. Heavenly bread isn't a veil for the Eucharistic presence of the Lord. It's a synonym, like Panis angelicus, or Bread of life.

    I don't mean to be annoying. It just seems to me that these details can and should be well done.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    I beg to differ. The whole of stanza 3:

    O Jesu, tuum vultum
    Quem cólimus occúltum
    Sub panis spécie.
    Fac ut, remóto velo,
    Post líbera in caelo
    Cernamus fácie!


    O Lord, we kneel before you
    And fervently adore you,
    Now veiled in heav'nly bread.
    Our hope is in your promise:
    To see you in your fullness,
    The sacred body's mystic Head.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Why not translate more literally, "veiled in the form of bread".
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    Kathy, first, the Catholic faithful are quite familiar with "bread of life," "bread from heaven," heavenly bread," bread of angels," "living bread," etc. as referring to the sacrament of the eucharist. Second, "veiled in" runs counter both to the meter of the text and the musical stress, having the important word (veiled) on an upbeat and a preposition (in) on a downbeat. Third, "form" sounds more Platonic than Thomistic; "species" encompasses more than the accident of appearance.

    Regarding Matthew's point about hymnals/service books, to which you also referred, yes, they are used primarily at Mass. But "the source and summit of the Christian life" refers to the entirety of the Church's liturgical rites, the Mass as well as the liturgy of the hours, the other six sacraments, holy communion outside Mass, eucharistic expositions and benediction, funerals, the blessing of churches and altars, and all the blessings in The Book of Blessings, even the blessing of animals on October 4. A comprehensive hymnal/service book should, as much as possible, make provision for this richness of the Church's liturgy.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Fr. Krisman, you are missing the point 180 degrees.

    I agree with you, of course, that heavenly bread means the Eucharist.

    Thus, heavenly bread is not a veil.

    See?
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 752
    I appreciate Kathy's issues,
    One of the problems I see here is that people are not familiar with "bread of life," "bread from heaven," heavenly bread," bread of angels," "living bread," etc. as referring to the sacrament of the Eucharist.
    in particular the children are explicitly taught in school that the Eucharist is 'Holy Bread' and they are not taught what is meant by the real presence, or transubstantiation. (in fact the imagery used in their catechetics book is a witch who draws an unending stream of magic bread form her oven. )
    Hence all , previously acceptable references to the Eucharist as bread, is now contaminated by the fact when they hear this it means to them 'bread and only bread' or at best 'blessed bread, holy bread or special bread'. It does not suggest any bible images, nor does it bring to mind the true presence.
    Added to this the fact that over 90% will not be attending Mass, if they follow their preparation program faithfully they will make their first holy communion at the ffifth Mass they have ever been to)
    Hence until the catechesis is fixed, our range or descriptive or poetic phrases about the Eucharist is, or IMHO should be restricted to those which are least misleading and most educative.

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Bonniebede, in my opinion that is why Eat This Bread should be omitted.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    All sacraments, being visible signs which effect what they signify, veil God's presence and action.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    That is not the sense of the Latin original. The Eucharist is not a veil. It is Itself adorable.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    We're all entitled to our own opinion, but not to our own facts. The fact is the Church's magisterium is responsible for judging how the Church's faith and morals are expressed. I know of no bishop who has judged "Eat This Bread" to be doctrinally deficient because "I am the living bread come down from heaven" is not included in the text of the refrain. It's more than adequately expressed in the verses.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Yes, I too wish bishops would examine hymns more closely, and legislate about them. Heresies of all kinds take wing on hymnody. This is a historical fact.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Regarding Eat this Bread, it would normally be sung during the Communion procession, when most people don't sing verses. The takeaway idea? Bread.

    Regarding form in St Thomas Aquinas, it's an enormous theme for him, both regarding creation and recreation.

    Regarding metrical variants: it is perfectly conventional to reverse the accents in the first foot of an iambic line.

    Regarding hymnal use: I think the burden of proof is on anyone who believes that the vast majority of the uses of any hymnal in the Catholic church is anything other than Mass.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,610
    Sure, the vast majority of use is Mass - but that doesn't mean people building a hymnal shouldn't also include things for other areas of parish life.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    I'm not sure I understand. Are the hymns in Worship IV intended primarily for use at parties?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,610
    I don't know the index of Worship IV off the top of my head and I left my personal copy at a previous parish and have not gotten a new one (I did just order a few copies of Worship III though, which are still available).

    I have been asked to go accompany music before/after a parish's senior group social. One particularly time that sticks in my head (because of delicious soup served to me), they wanted How Great Thou Art before their meeting/lunch and Siyahamba/We Are Marching after their meeting/lunch. Neither of these things would have been sung at Sunday Masses at this particular parish, but they were sung in this social setting. The parish in question did not have hymnals, but the parish hall was attached to the church building, so pushing a cart of hymnals over wouldn't have been out of the question.

    Some parishes do not have adequate-sized parish halls and so things like "town hall meetings," parish missions, etc... do take place inside the church. These are not liturgical events and could begin/end/include music - again, not necessarily liturgical.

    The blessing of Pets, if held outdoors near the church on a day with pleasant weather, a cart of hymnals could certainly be wheeled out.

    I'm all in favor of printing music leaflets, but if someone were to take conserving paper very seriously, they could use a hymnal for all aspects of parish life.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    Regarding Eat this Bread, it would normally be sung during the Communion procession, when most people don't sing verses. The takeaway idea? Bread.

    That appears to be a very negative opinion of the faith and understanding of Catholic people. Not based on empirical evidence.

    Regarding form in St Thomas Aquinas, it's an enormous theme for him, both regarding creation and recreation.

    Clever. But beside the point, the point being the meaning of the Latin "species" and not the English "form."

    Regarding metrical variants: it is perfectly conventional to reverse the accents in the first foot of an iambic line.

    Yes, it happens. But it sticks out like a sore thumb when the tune does not accommodate the reverse of accents. And the tune INNSBRUCK does not. Fr. Lee's text has no weakly accented preposition on a downbeat. Why mess that up with the text you propose?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Speaking of animals and parties, they shoot horses when they're done, don't they still. Or are they still flogged after assuming room temperature?
    No offense intended.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    matthewj, The complete indexes for Worship IV are online at:

    http://www.giamusic.com/pdf/W4indexes.pdf
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    X-post from the P&W thread.

    Whilst pondering the badminton set re. WIII/WIV, it occurred to me that MJM's point is quite valid, allowing for some circumstances. One such circumstance would be at Francsican U. Steubenville, where their "homegrown" bound hymnal is ratio'd similar to the Gather model, but decidedly with P&W (Maher/Hart/Angrisano) content prominent as well. Well, how does that work? It seems to me that the chapel(s) there, and maybe other gathering spaces have sufficient quantities to suffice for use at liturgies, devotions, para-liturgies, animal blessings as well. IIRC, from an alumnus in my choir, their ability to chant, to chorally render polyphony etc., hymnody, religious song and P&W was not all compromised or discouraged by the very eclectic repertoire in that hymnal (I snuck a copy, don't tell 'em.) In fact, my FUS gal sang the soprano solo in Allegri's Miserere, but loved singing all that syncopa stuff in the book as well.
    I hope it's noticed I'm not engaging in the liturgical theology debate over hymntext content. But that a hymnal might serve in non-liturgical interests is a viable concern.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    Okay, Matthew, you win. Hymnals may be carted.

    But I also win. They usually aren't, and you could just keep a bunch of otherwise useless old copies of Glory and Praise in a handy cupboard.

    Fr. Krisman, I'm sorry to say that you can't win, not now. Worship had a decent run as a series until recently. It may be that Worship V picks up the ball, so there certainly is hope.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,335
    Thanks, Kathy.

    If melo was implying that we've beat this horse to death, he's probably correct.

    I'd much rather have you working on that 39% list anyway.

    Love you.
    Thanked by 2melofluent Gavin