Unenforceable patchwork of rhetoric?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Returning to the topic at hand (and many thanks for the great recipe!) I find it stunning that in May of 2012 the revival of Gregorian chant was announced and a specific proposal presented to the world. As Sandro Magister commented at the time:

    "The congregation for divine worship wants to put itself in the lead of the rebirth of great sacred music. Here is its program, made public for the first time by one of its officials. But the secretariat of state has its own musicians, and is putting on the brakes".


    Msgr. Ferrer, whom I've mentioned above spoke of the "clear and precise" magisterium in regard to sacred music which had been given from Tra le sollicitudini on. However, as he says, "it has been widely disobeyed and contradicted." And the blame, he admits, "has in part belonged to the hierarchy of the Church."

    The Church spoke – Ferrer noted – but lacked "a concrete intention to have the discipline in effect applied by those who had responsibility in the matter."

    So then, in regard to this sin of omission attributable in large part to the congregation for divine worship of which he himself is part, Ferrer has announced that it is being remedied.

    And this is being done at the prompting of a recent motu proprio of Benedict XVI, "Quaerit semper" of August 30, 2011.


    And there is more extremely pertinent stuff in the rest of the article . . .
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I'm adding more notable excerpts from Msgr. Ferrer's talk just for the record. How sad that Msgr. Ferrer's fine work has been put on the shelf to gather dust.

    Msgr. Ferrer opens his talk by reminding his audience of Pope Benedict's mission to establish the hermeneutic of continuity in his papacy, the "urgency and centrality that the Holy Father Benedict XVI has wanted to reserve during his whole pontificate to the correct and authentic application of the teachings of Vatican Council II."

    This was the reason the motu proprio "Quaerit Semper" of August of 2011 was promulgated: "the Holy Father Benedict XVI has wished to concentrate further the work of the congregation for divine worship and the discipline of the sacraments in its properly liturgical competencies:

    From Quaerit Semper:

    "In present circumstances it has seemed appropriate for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to focus mainly on giving a fresh impetus to promoting the Sacred Liturgy in the Church, in accordance with the renewal that the Second Vatican Council desired, on the basis of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium."


    (Please note his mention of Sacrosanctum Concilium.)
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Last installment of pertinent points from Sandro Magister's article entitled, "Gregorian Chant, The Revival Announced" which I believe deserve some recognition. Some details of Msgr. Ferrer's proposal would have greatly affected the CMAA and the admirable work of so many here.

    It's not out of the question that some of our experts here might have been called to Rome to work as consultants on sacred music. Some of our composers may have finally received due recognition and a general flourishing of sacred music may have been realized.

    This is a big chunk of fine print to assimilate, but just imagine what might have been. Read it and weep, as they say:

    In the specific field of sacred music, specific relations at the institutional level will be reestablished with the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music, as also with the Abbey of Saint-Pierre of Solesmes and other associations and institutions that work in the field of music for the liturgy, from the scientific point of view, from the academic point of view, and in the perspective of the creation of new music or of pastoral practice.

    At the level of immediate objectives or challenges, I will point out a few that certainly appear evident:

    a. To realize and complete the series of musical books for the liturgy in the Latin language, including the holy Mass, the divine office, the sacraments and sacramentals. Having reached this goal, it will probably be appropriate to realize a complete and more easily usable edition of many of these materials in the form of a sort of "liber usualis."

    b. It seems just as urgent to recompile and clarify the different norms and the guidelines of the most recent pontifical magisterium on sacred music in order to offer a foundational text for a directory of chant and music in liturgical celebration for the use of the different conferences of bishops, to which is entrusted the task of elaborating directories and repertoires for their respective countries.

    Such a directory, as far as Gregorian chant is concerned, will have to overcome the disputes between purely paleographical and pastoral criteria, as also, in relation with the competent dicastery, to pose the problems of the use of Gregorian chant according to editions from before 1962 in the so-called "extraordinary form" of the Roman rite.

    c. With the help of the competent academic and pastoral institutions, it will be necessary to promote, at least in the principal or most widespread modern languages, in harmony with the criteria presented in an appropriate directory, models of new compositions which may help to verify the theoretical proposals and discern them at the local level.

    There remains the doubt of what may be the best strategy for reaching such a result. For the moment, the wait continues for the new organisms within the congregation, members and consultants, to confer on these matters, from the edition of repertoires for international celebrations to the organization of international awards or competitions of composition, to courses for composers, conductors, and performers, and to many other concrete proposals to be evaluated.


    That's it for now. Read the rest here if you can bear to without throwing something at the computer. At any rate, here it is, Msgr. Ferrer's monumental project which would have turned the world of Catholic sacred music upside down and changed forever the Catholic worship experience.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't want to play into conspiracy theories, but...

    Isn't it odd that Pope Benedict suddenly retired - something that hasn't happened in centuries.

    Isn't it odd that an unknown of somewhat questionable orthodoxy was elected pope?

    Isn't it odd that Benedict's greatest supporters were/are being purged?

    Isn't it odd that those in charge seem to be working actively against Benedict's liturgical accomplishments?

    Isn't it odd that cardinal is set against cardinal?

    Isn't it odd that some days it appears that no one is in charge?

    Smoke of Satan? Could be. That's above my pay grade and I sure as brimstone don't know. Wish I did!
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Someone ought to write a novel about this... And maybe one about an albino monk who kills cardinals on the Eve of the Big Conclave. It would surely be a commercial success.
    Kindly send your profits to Phoenix so I can get a pipe organ. Thanks.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I think the paradigm shift is obvious to everyone save those who are somewhat more literally-minded about the First Commandment. We now have "Save the world, (then maybe) save the liturgy..... (or worse) lex vivendi, lex credendi, lex orandi."
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Someone ought to write a novel about this... And maybe one about an albino monk who kills cardinals on the Eve of the Big Conclave. It would surely be a commercial success.
    Kindly send your profits to Phoenix so I can get a pipe organ. Thanks.


    There was a novel about JP the first and his untimely death. Was it "In God's Name," or something similar. I have it somewhere in the thousands of books that take up too much space in my house.

    Pipe organ? Aren't you in a major cathedral? At least I thought you were. I would be greatly surprised if there were not enough funds there to buy one. I would have thought you financially much better off than those of us in my little part of the world.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Gavin
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I never had much of a sense that anything significant would emit from the CDW on this score - it seemed like a classic case of Curial specialists making grandiose statements of purpose that were merely a statement of vision without much in the way of tethering to realities on the ground*. The Secretary of State approved the formation of the new office for sacred music, art and architecture less than four months before Pope Benedict XVI announced his renunciation of office, and I am not aware that the office ever formally came into being. With the restructuring of the Curia in progress, I don't know that it ever will.

    * Given that the many American bishops supposedly sympathetic to Reform of the Reform couldn't muster the energy to actively legislate regarding liturgical music as notionally envisioned by Liturgicam Authenticam, it's even harder to imagine any Curial office *sustaining* an appetite to do the same for the entire Church. I could see an occasaional enthusiastic official, but relying on the periodic enthusiastic official is a formula for failure.

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Isn't it odd that an unknown of somewhat questionable orthodoxy was elected pope?


    Also - on this point - Cardinal Bergoglio was an unknown?

    The supposed leaked journal from the Cardinal Ratzinger conclave alleges that he was the only real competition that could have been elected Pope instead of Benedict XVI in 2005. He was not some unknown man from a far off land.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Pipe organ? Aren't you in a major cathedral? At least I thought you were. I would be greatly surprised if there were not enough funds there to buy one. I would have thought you financially much better off than those of us in my little part of the world.


    It's a process... there were still drums and guitars in the building just a few short years ago. We've moved the choir back to the loft, now a hopefully easy-to-complete capital campaign will hopefully see the building get the pipe organ it was intended to have when it was built. It didn't end up getting one because of reasons and/or things and/or stuff happening.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Isn't it odd that some days it appears that no one is in charge?


    Doesn't odd mean "otherwise than usual," and not "otherwise than I'd prefer?"
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Also - on this point - Cardinal Bergoglio was an unknown?


    Perhaps. I had never heard of him. I tend to think infighting among the Italian cardinals is the main reason he was elected. They seemingly had the numbers if they could have united behind an Italian candidate.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Doesn't odd mean "otherwise than usual," and not "otherwise than I'd prefer?"


    I have had the thought that no one was in charge before - like once a month for the last 30 years. LOL.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Also - on this point - Cardinal Bergoglio was an unknown?


    Perhaps. I had never heard of him. I tend to think infighting among the Italian cardinals is the main reason he was elected. They seemingly had the numbers if they could have united behind an Italian candidate.


    And his family was Italian. I've wondered if he was seen as both just-italian-enough and just-enough-not-italian.

    I've also wondered if there was some thinking that perhaps, as a relative outsider, he would be easier to control. (And WHO KNOWS whether that is turning out to be true?)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Who knows? The Italian cardinals were divided into at least two or three factions backing different candidates. There was no single cardinal they could all support, since I understand the groups were hostile toward each other.

    Popes come and popes go. If the current one doesn't start taking security more seriously, he may go sooner than he thought.
  • vogelkwvogelkw
    Posts: 55
    In readings comments from this discussion within the context of other discussions I have read on this forum, I want to give a couple of my own reflections on church legislation with regard to liturgy and its music. My purpose here is not to try to understand the level of the legal requirement specific documents (like Sacrosanctum Concilium) have. I think a number of others here may share a certain desire I have that the Church simply enforce by law the vision of the sung liturgy we see expressed through many of its documents (both before, during, and after VAII). But my further reflection makes me question if that would be a good thing for the Church to do. My desire for such legislative enforcement stems from the disparity between my day to day experience of the liturgy and the vision of the liturgy found in the writings of the Church. The challenge for all of us is to share the Church's vision and overcome some of the underlying philosophies that tend to guide many parish's liturgical choices. Two such philosophies are as follows:

    1. Legalistic Liturgical Minimalism (This is my own term, as far as I know.) This underlying and perhaps unconscious philosophy of “legalistic liturgical minimalism” is the idea that one needs to do only what are the minimal requirements by law. This is a philosophy, upheld nowhere in Church writings on the liturgy, that has unfortunately held strong influence over the way we celebrate the liturgy. For example, certainly a Sunday Mass that is not a Sung Mass is still valid and allowed by church law, but it really is an impoverishment of what the Church desires our experience of the Sunday liturgy to be.

    (Another example might be the imposition on the liturgy of the hour (or less) time limit. I am sure many of us have had the experience of trying to fit the church's liturgy on major feasts into the hour (or less) time slot, while the order of that liturgy itself does not lend itself to such a short time. As I had one parishioner comment to me once, then Mass can feel like a "race." It will feel like a marathon to those who insist on the hour and experience the liturgy lasting longer. It will feel like a sprint to the priest who is forced to stuff the Church's liturgy into a duration to small to fit it.)

    This kind of legalistic minimalism is a vice we must work against in many other aspects of our lives. Jesus himself called the Pharisees out for their legalistic minimalism of simply following the commandments and ritual laws but failing to strive for the greatest commandments of love. The same is true for us, who so often try to get away with doing the least as possible for God and for others rather than striving for true holiness.

    2. Unrestricted Pastoral Creativity (Again, my own term.) This often seems to go hand in hand with Legalistic Liturgical Minimalism. While in #1 the vision of the Church for its liturgy is truncated to what is required by law, other elements not legislated (but not explicitly outlawed) are added. Often this is done for "pastoral" reasons. Being "pastoral" is of course very good, but often this kind of pastoral creativity sees "pastoral" as "giving the people what we think they want" rather than pastoral's true meaning as "shepherding the people to what will cause growth in holiness." I think it is within this creativity that many of the unnecessary "accretions" occur - at least that tends to be my own practical experience of Mass.

    Examples of such creative "accretions" might include: trite "call to worship" commentary prior to Mass, refrain-based glorias (we have used one that ended up being longer than 80% of the gregorian glorias, I timed it), lengthy additional commentary at certain moments by the celebrant, always using the shortest form of the readings, using texts other than what is prescribed by the church (always using different responsorial psalms or always replacing the propers), multiplying the number of intercessions, secular styles of music and so forth. When combined with the artificial time restraint, such "accretions" can make the priest feel his role being pushed out of the liturgy - perhaps needing to shorten his already short homily, not sing, not use the Roman Canon, or even rush though the Eucharistic Prayer just so he can finish Mass in the "required" time limit.

    It has always confused me why some think following the Church's vision for the liturgy is "unpastoral." For example, yesterday on the Holy Day I celebrated it as a Sung Mass and as the Octave Day of Christmas, singing many of the prayers of the Mass including the central part of the Roman Canon due to the level of solemnity. I had a parishioner come up to me afterward. She admitted to me that at first she did not like me singing so much at Mass, but now she actually appreciated it. That is exactly what being pastoral is about: leading the people to experience what will most help them actively participate in giving glory to God and in their own sanctification. Over the nearly four years I have been in the parish, the music of the Church has formed her heart anew. She has allowed the chant to shape her, rather than impose her own likes upon the liturgy. (Of course, I did this in step-wise additions, not all at once.) To give the people the Church's vision of the sung liturgy is quite pastoral. Not to do so would be to act, not as a shepherd, but as a hireling. (This is analogous to our shepherding in moral aspects as well.)

    The desire that the Church would simply enforce its vision for the liturgy through further legislation comes at least in part from the frustration with underlying philosophies like the two considered above. Perhaps it would make it easier, but likely it would not. We are seeking to change hearts, to help them encounter Christ, not to be a Church of rules. I think it is an advantage for us not to insist "We need to do this, sing this, because it is the law." Rather, I make the case for sacred music based on the vision of the Church, what is the best, the first fruits, we can give to God. How does the Church's vision assist us in encountering Christ in a deeper way than perhaps our own limited ideas. Let the music itself transform their hearts as it did for the woman above. Yes, this requires work on our part, but that is what we have been called to be: laborers gathering in the harvest. As fellow laborers with Christ to spend and consume ourselves for souls.

    God bless,
    Fr. Vogel
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thank you, Father, for your insightful comment. After reading about Msgr. Ferrer's heroic but failed attempt to bring about the revival of sacred music in the liturgy, I was feeling like the goals of the original liturgical movement had been inexplicably snatched out of our grasp yet again, but your words have helped assuage my sense of frustration and temptation to cynicism.

    Our experience preparing the music for our Sunday EF Missa Cantata is there are two aspects of preparation which take a lot of time and consideration each week. The first is obviously preparing the sung choir parts (the G.R. propers and polyphonic motets). The second is to prepare a suitable "space" so that the people may enter in to the celebration and more easily participate in it, and this involves preparing a handout, choosing appropriate hymns and teaching the people new mass settings.

    We are deeply committed to trying in our own small way to realize the goals of the original liturgical movement which Cardinal Ratzinger believed in so deeply, namely, to teach the people, in the words of the preconciliar popes and Vatican II, "to say and sing in Latin those parts of the Mass which pertain to them.

    Cardinal Ratzinger in his epic address on the 10th Anniversary of Ecclesia Dei, pointed out three criteria from Sacrosanctum Concilium by which liturgies in both the OF and EF may be judged: SC 36.2, SC 28, and SC 30.

    This is his very thought-provoking reflection which gives people involved in both forms of the Roman rite plenty to think about, and could form the basis of a very productive discussion and self-examination, as it were (the Cardinal calls it self-criticism) since these basic criteria apply to both forms and give us a standard by which we can evaluate whether the celebrations of the EF or the OF are being carried out according to the mind of the Church:

    This is why it is very important to observe the essential criteria of the Constitution on the Liturgy, which I quoted above, including when one celebrates according to the old Missal! The moment when this liturgy truly touches the faithful with its beauty and its richness, then it will be loved, then it will no longer be irreconcilably opposed to the new Liturgy, providing that these criteria are indeed applied as the Council wished.

    Different spiritual and theological emphases will certainly continue to exist, but there will no longer be two contradictory ways of being a Christian; there will instead be that richness which pertains to the same single Catholic faith. .
  • The church has a mission to evangelise. We do, some, but not enough and often not well.
    The church has a mission to form holy families. we do some but not enough and often not well. The church is to serve the poor, visit the prisoner and so on. We do some, but not enough, and often not well. The church is called to be 'a royal priesthood,,, people set apart to sing the praises of God who called us out of darkness into his wonderful light. We do some, but not enough, and often not well.
    Popes are to lead and guide us in all these things. They do, some, but sometimes not enough, and sometimes not well.
    Guess the Pope is a catholic after all.
  • So, what's wrong with the NO? Take away some 'this or similar words' rubrics, add some 'do this' rubrics and scratch the choices, then celebrate it the way it might be celebrated at Walsingham or by an high church Anglican and it would be the gift it was meant to be.


    There was so much manipulation & fraud around the birth of the NO that it's hard for me to not have some rather strong distaste for it in general. (Note: I am not stating that it is not a valid Mass however.) To call it a gift makes my stomach turn a little, heck, even our Pope Emeritus, (then Cardinal Ratzinger) called it a "banal, fabricated product". To quote Bugnini, (I'm sure everyone here is aware of his legacy by now), "We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants." The fact that Bugnini was 'fired' by Pope John XXIII for his liturgical views, but then (curiously) re-instated by Pope Paul VI, only to be re-fired by that same Pope shortly thereafter should give some pause, especially since he is practically the main author of the new liturgy. Perhaps I am not adding much of any real value to this thread, but I just take some issue with the "gift it was meant to be" statement, since anything coming from the Rhine group tends to get my Catholic sensibilities in a bunch.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    There was so much manipulation & fraud around the birth of the NO that it's hard for me to not have some rather strong distaste for it in general. (Note: I am not stating that it is not a valid Mass however.) To call it a gift makes my stomach turn a little, heck, even our Pope Emeritus, (then Cardinal Ratzinger) called it a "banal, fabricated product". To quote Bugnini, (I'm sure everyone here is aware of his legacy by now), "We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants." The fact that Bugnini was 'fired' by Pope John XXIII for his liturgical views, but then (curiously) re-instated by Pope Paul VI, only to be re-fired by that same Pope shortly thereafter should give some pause, especially since he is practically the main author of the new liturgy. Perhaps I am not adding much of any real value to this thread, but I just take some issue with the "gift it was meant to be" statement, since anything coming from the Rhine group tends to get my Catholic sensibilities in a bunch.
    Lee, if your name wasn't attached to this fine little piece of prose the forum woulda thought I wrote it. Congrats. I have lately been wondering if Bugnini was actually the anti-christ in the flesh.

    In 1947 Bugnini became involved in the production of the missionary publications of his order and at the same time became the first editor of Ephemerides Liturgicæ, a scholarly journal which was dedicated to the reform of the Catholic liturgy.

    On May 28, 1948, Pope Pius XII appointed Bugnini Secretary to the Commission for Liturgical Reform.,[1] which created a revised rite for the Easter Vigil in 1951 and revised ceremonies for the rest of Holy Week in 1955. That same year, the Commission made changes to the rubrics of the Mass and Office, suppressing many of the Church's octaves and a number of vigils, and abolishing the First Vespers of most feasts.

    The Commission went on to reform the Code of Rubrics (1960) which led to new editions of the Roman Breviary in 1961 and the Roman Missal in 1962.[3] The liturgical changes implemented by the Commission for Liturgical Reform between 1951 and 1962, reflected in the 1962 Missal and Breviary, laid the ground for the later Novus Ordo Mass.

    On January 25, 1959, Pope John XXIII announced that he planned to convene the Second Vatican Council. On June 6, 1960, Fr. Bugnini was appointed to the Secretary of the Pontifical Preparatory Commission on the Liturgy. This body produced the first drafts of the document which after many changes would become the Pastoral Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium).

    However, according to Archbishop Piero Marini a former collaborator with Bugnini, after the Council commenced on October 11, 1962, Bugnini's fortunes were to wane for a while. Thus, although Bugnini had been secretary of the Preconciliar Commission, Fr. Ferdinando Antonelli, O.F.M. was instead appointed as secretary of the Conciliar Commission on the Sacred Liturgy on October 21, 1962. Bugnini was demoted to the position of a peritus (expert). At the same time, Bugnini was also removed from the chair of Liturgy at the Pontifical Lateran University in Rome "because his liturgical ideas were seen as too progressive."[4]

    The death of St. John XXIII and the election of Paul VI in June 1963 boded well for Bugnini. After the Council and Pope approved the Constitution on the Liturgy on December 4, 1963. On January 3, 1964, Pope Paul VI appointed Bugnini as Secretary of the Council (Consilium[5]) for the Implementation of the Constitution on the Liturgy ("the Consilium" for short).[6] Bugnini was appointed the Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship by Pope Paul in May 1969.[7]
    This reads like a wolf in waiting as far as I can see. ... and yes, the title of this thread is very accurate.
    Thanked by 1Lee_Cunningham
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Reading Overath's Intro, this truly is an amazing paragraph:

    Today more than ever before the Church should take its stand in the world. Indeed it must do this with confidence and joy. But the Church must not be of this world, if it will remain true to the divine mission to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world. The Church must be open to the world but must not equate itself with the world. The more hectic the outward mode of living becomes, so much the more do men need the Church as the place of quiet and of final rest. In the Church eternity reaches down into time, and all that the Church says and does, most
    especially in divine services, must remain transparent, because its being is founded in the super-terrestrial. In church music, we have in the service of praise and of prayer neglected the latter aspect of transparency for the super-terrestrial. Indeed, we have forgotten it. One might well imagine that the church music of the future together with future hymns may have to go out in search of this again. They will have to try to strike a note that is related to the soaring clarity and eloquent silence of Gregorian chant and thereby lead us anew to adoration. We have already noted that the Reformation hymn was the new song of that era. This was true precisely because it left the all too super-terrestrial, meditative and other-worldly sound and descended to the earthly which was the final consequence of taking seriously the Incarnation of the Divine Word. We have, however, all too long and too one-sidedly become fixed in this optimistic activity which has been joined with the pharisaical noise of confessional prayer. Now at last we have to search for a wholesome completion in the transcending of secularization.

    If in spite of the clear, historical tradition of the Lutheran Church and the musical problems that confront that body today, someone may still try to seek for a solution to the problem of singing prose texts in the vernacular by turning to a kind of vernacular Gregorian chant, then he might well consider the study prepared by Johannes Hatzfeld.22 As early as 1953, Hatzfeld, who was
    a recognized authority on congregational song in the Catholic Church, prepared a memorandum for the German episcopal conference meeting in Fulda on the subject of various experiments in this area. He spoke out unequivocally against them.23 In addition, there are other studies in the matter.24

    ____

    The footnote on 22 is this:

    Cf. Hubert Jedin, "Kirchengeschichte und Kirchenkrise," Anzeiger fur die \atholische Geistlich\eit (1968), Vol. 77, p. 535 f. On p. 537, the author comes to the following conclusions among others: "It is only with the greatest reluctance that I speak about the liturgical crisis . . . I fear that it will not be long until one will not be able to find a Latin missal in many places, until our children no longer know what a Gloria or a Credo is, and until one must go into the concert hall to hear the immortal creations of our church music. Catholic worship is both mystery and proclamation. As mystery it is impenetrable by our understanding, and must remain so. Translations of texts into the vernacular can do nothing to change this."


    This confirms what I have been saying all along. The nuchant is just as bad as the nuliturgy. We cannot turn to a 'new kind of vernacular Gregorian chant'. It is simply a novelty and a substitute for the true sacred music of the Latin rite.

  • Lee, if your name wasn't attached to this fine little piece of prose the forum woulda thought I wrote it. Congrats. I have lately been wondering if Bugnini was actually the anti-christ in the flesh.

    Ha, well as you can see from my post count I am rather new here, but thanks for the welcome of sorts. :P

    One of the things I wonder, is that after Pope Paul VI found out that Bugnini was manipulating things to the extent that he did, why he didn't just pull the plug...perhaps there will be some greater clarification within the pages of the next book on my reading block, Pope Paul's New Mass (written by Michael Davies for those who don't know).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I have not read that book yet, but am well aware of Davies. He was unflinching.
  • It is the third book in a trilogy of his; 1. Cranmer's Godly Order, 2. Pope John's Council, and 3. Pope Paul's New Mass.

    Here is a blurb about Michael Davies posted on the Rorate Caeli blog:

    Part 1- "Protestant Liturgical Revolution as Precursor of Catholic Upheaval"
    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/09/10-years-without-michael-davies-i.html

    Part 2 - "A Writer to Cherish"
    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/09/10-years-without-michael-davies-ii.html
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Gentlemen, please retire to your corners for needed respite.
    francis, might I suggest you consider retracting your penchant-induced misnomer "nuchant" as well as even "nuchurch?" It mires the discussion, particularly in the latter, and most certainly in the former. L.Cunningham even took pains to clarify that recognitio of the validity of the NO is acknowledged. It is therefore unnecessary to rehash what ultimately will wash out as the NO, even if celebrated in Latin, is faulty. And yes, I read RC with affection and longing. But, to get all apoplectic and apocalyptic in every fell swoop is so counter-productive.
  • Am I in the red corner or the blue? :P

    Also, what does the "RC" stand for in your comment, melo? Rorate Caeli perhaps? I just want to make sure I am on the same page. ;)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    What is counter productive is contributing to the long list of novelties that we continue to spin out for the NO. If we want to compose something new, let's stick to the sure thing that was handed down to us. I agree with Lee... validity is not the question; questionable is a valid concern, however. Hence why I don't compose anything in English, especially not ordinaries or propers.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, Lee, though admitting that publicly would shred what little credibility I have with a segment of my colleagues.
    As Liam mentions in another thread, friend francis, I'm not gonna take yer bait. I've nothing agin your Latin-away POV, and certainly am not amenable to Latin-AWAY! advocates. I do believe as long as I profess the Creed (and that sounds a little too like Garry Wills) that obliges me to acknowledge fealty to the laws of HMC.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    With this thread I have decided to take a break from this forum. The endless disputes over matters which we cannot change and the rhetoric does not help. While I appreciate a good argument, there is a point to let it go. The threads of late have dissapeared into a sea of combative language. It is of no help and looks almost as bad as some of the assaults at PT.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I bid you an adieu until after Lent begins.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Melo:

    No bait offered. That is simply my philosophy as a composer in the Roman Rite. Nothing else. Just expressing my opinion like everyone else.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Kevin:

    The title of this thread is overtly rhetorical, so I suspect it was kind of like throwing meat to sharks!

    ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    What is counter productive is contributing to the long list of novelties that we continue to spin out for the NO.

    francis, this is the "bait" that you're casting, that you've been trumpeting for years. Trust me, we got it. The difference you may not realize is that you're in the fine company of Fr. Kocik, Drs. Schaefer and Kwasniewski and countless others who've publicly also forlorn the company of the OF and questioned the ultimate usefulness of said "novelites," but who've also via that profession ceased decrying it and its attributes, while at the same time not condemning the NO. I think that's where you part company with them; it's like a clanging cymbal and banging gong 24/7. Could this be why we lose the company of our friends like Kevin of Bourbonlands (all hail, Woodford Reserve!) in that relentless cries that the sky is falling remains only relentless howling? I don't see any grace or benefit there.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think that what gets either forgotten, or deliberately ignored, is that the NO is the normative, ordinary, and current form of the Roman Rite. Our Lady isn't going to come in glory and restore the Tridentine Rite - we don't even know if she cares about Trent or even Latin, since she likely never spoke it while on earth. Greek perhaps would have been more familiar to her, a language more common in the early church which originated in the Greek culture of the east. If the BVM wanted to really punish us, she would leave us alone to resolve the mess we've made on our own. LOL. BTW, that was Chicken Little with the falling sky, not Mary.

    We are in 2015 and can't go back to 1653 or any other earlier date of choice. So...we work with what we have and do the best we can with what we've got. It isn't a perfect world. It wasn't perfect in 1653, either. That doesn't mean going to the other extreme and throwing everything old out the window. Keep the best of the ancient and use it where possible in the context of the currently mandated rite. To those whose context allows them to do more, glory and power forever. For the rest of us, we do what we can.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    We are in 2015 and can't go back to 1653 or any other earlier date of choice.

    I guess I'll put a hold on my copies of the Magnus Liber I just ordered form the Paris scriptorium.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I guess I'll put a hold on my copies of the Magnus Liber I just ordered form the Paris scriptorium.

    Get it and keep it. I am holding on to my old stuff, too, in the hope I get to use it more someday. If not today...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I am holding on to my old stuff, too, in the hope I get to use it more someday. If not today...

    Good: I'll sent Maitre Perotin an e-mail tomorrow.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Good: I'll sent Maitre Perotin an e-mail tomorrow.

    Shall we gather at the river, the bee-yoo-ti-fu (2x) ri-hih-ver?<?b>
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,946
    Melo, I agree with you. I would add that if we want something then we must pray, learn it, and then in the case of the ritual of the Mass and Gregorian chant, we must pray while doing it. The only thing stopping us is the current ecclesiastical climate, which I tend to ignore anyways sine it changes not one iota of Summorum Pontificum, the GIRM, or other appropriate documents which tell us how we ought to approach the Roman liturgy.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Only one thing will satisfy heaven. Nothing else. The request of Our Lady of Fatima. Otherwise, there is no reversing anything.


    As a member of the Blue Army since the 1970s, I concur. Our Lady requested prayers and fasting in reparation for the sins against Her Immaculate Heart. I don't see how that part of the request changes whether or not Russia was properly consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    My point, exactly. It is not the pronouncement of a "magic" formula that will make the difference. It will help, but it is not everything. The prayer, fasting, and reparation are the most important, I think.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova