Lush and jubilant accompaniment for Mass I (Lux et Origo)?
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Merry Christmas, all! Before asking this question, let me avoid a lot of needless moralizing by stating that I am a DM, and my music program does nearly everything unaccompanied, including--generally-- full kyriales and propers on most Sundays. Therefore, I am well aware of the virtues of unaccompanied vocal music.

    I'm also aware of prevailing ideas that chant accompaniment should be minimalist, unobtrusive, and modal; but that's not what I'm looking for in this case. ;) Rather, I need a lush and jubilant organ accompaniment for Mass I (Lux et Origo), preferably one that follows common practice norms.

    For this, NOH is dull (yes, I said it), Bragers isn't quite what I want harmonically, and Witt doesn't seem to contain Lux et Origo in its standard form. Recommendations?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Have you seen the accompaniment for Mass I in the Liber Cantualis comitante organo by the Monks of Solesmes? Looks like you can view some of it here. I use this volume of chant accompaniments all the time.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. The gracious and generous Jeff Ostrowski also has a Polish Kyriale available online which contains an accompaniment for Mass I.
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  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    When do you need it? Sounds like a good project to improve my organ writing ...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Mass I (Lux et origo) is suggested for Easter.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Yes but: some folks want to have a new thing three months before its use, others are calm with day-before delivery .. the Ra,czkowsky (Polish Kyriale) linked above is a harmonization, one of those that follows the chant rhythm and adds notes below the chant melody which are plausible harmonic material. That's not the kind of thing I read when reading the original post, but it's not entirely clear what is wanted.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    If I were to imagine what "lush and jubilant" meant in connection with a mass setting for use in church, it would include an introduction of sorts for organ but not a great deal of musical development beyond setting forth the chant melody for choir. SATB? Something like this : And happy new year!
    0594_kyrie_ex1.png
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I wrote this yesterday. If you like it and would like me to do the rest of the mass we can discuss that possibility.

    I opted for standard notation instead of the NOH stemless look, because some of the figures make more sense visually this way.

    It is intended to be useful no matter what type of registration is selected. Attached are midi recordings of full organ or flute - the harmonies sound "lush and jubilant" either way.
    1 Kyrie.pdf
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    kyrie1full.mp3
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    kyrie1flute.mp3
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Add a tie to the D's in alto voice, second line, on the "e-" of eleison.
    I didn't save the score so I can't post an edited version.
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Wow. Thanks, everyone, for your replies. Yes @Salieri, I'm planning for Easter, already. ;) I didn't expect anyone to compose anything on my behalf; in fact, I was looking for an accompaniment in the public domain (I know-- I'm so demanding) that I could borrow harmonic material from in my own choral composition.

    Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to commission a new work, at present, but I appreciate your willingness to help; and the new work that has been posted above is lovely. @ryand, I love the dissonances in yours-- that certainly is lush!
  • Sad. The death of needless moralizing on the forum. Knew it had to happen, but still...image
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  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Also, I've just corrected my original post: I don't think I've actually seen the Rossini accompaniment to this Mass, as I can't find a PDF of it anywhere. Anyone have this? Wink, wink.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    Noel: Wrong thread?
  • Adam: Correct needle. See original post at top.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    OH I SEE.
    Apologies. Very appropriate.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    ryand -- write the whole mass. People will use it.
    Thanked by 2ryand shawnk
  • It's, O, Say Can You See, but often so poorly sung (like the mass at times) I can see how you thought it was Oh I See.
    Apologies always accepted, but cash is better. And ditto about ryand writing it, nice job!
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  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    You may think 'can you see' (SOL LA DO); one might try DO-RE-FA; to my original ears the melody HAS to start RE-MI-SOL, unusual as that may appear.
  • Pursuant to an earlier comment: the entire “Liber Cantualis” accompaniment is downloadable online, quite easily if you search on the book’s title.

    I *suspect* it’s actually illegal to post online. Whether Solesmes will do anything about it, who knows. But, there it is.

    I actually quite like the accompaniments in there, for the most part.
    Thanked by 1shawnk
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I like the Solesmes' accompaniments as well, Felipe. They're light and serene. The Liber Cantualis comitante organo is probably my most used organ book. Wish they had accompaniments for all the mass settings.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    I don't expect a lot of agreement but surely Lux et origo should be first jubilant and only secondarily lush. And in my lonely opinion you can't do jubilant without rhythm. I know what the words mean, too. But here's how I'd sing the kyrie, re-mi-sol:
    0594_kyrie_ex2.png
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  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    And with tuning markings and the simplest of bass lines:
    0594_kyrie_ex3.png
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    you can't do jubilant without rhythm


    The corpus of Gregorian Alleluias would seem to disagree with you.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    you can't do jubilant without rhythm



    The corpus of Gregorian Alleluias would seem to disagree with you.

    Actually, if sung with a good interpretation following Cardine's principles, with some judiciously added epismata from St. Gall and or Laon, light repercussions (a slight push from the diaphragm) on the bi- and tri-strophs, using epismata as points of expression, and mora vocis as a point of rest, the Gregorian Alleluias are indeed very rhythmic, but it is a different rhythm than that usually associated with mensural music.
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    ryand -- write the whole mass. People will use it.


    I need confirmation of this, for my ego's sake. And for time. The Kyrie alone took 4-5 hours (I didn't keep judicious track of it... and I do tend to wander the house occasionally when in a creative headspace), most of that time spent getting it from my hands to the page. The Gloria will take several days' work (and I work 60+ hours outside of church) and the Agnus Dei, like the Kyrie, will get different harmonizations for each repeat (for reasons), so its going to be a big time commitment to do the whole mass.

    I'll write it, but only if someone confirms it would be used. Sounds like @shawnk wants to do his own SATB based on something else.

    I just want to know it will resonate in a sanctuary somewhere before I commit.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I'll commit to playing it at home and thinking about doing it for Mass for Easter of 2016. I promise.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    The issue of DO-RE-FA, RE-MI-SOL, or SOL-LA-DO stirred up memories of an unrelated piece which I suppose turns out to be a meditation on Lux et Origo: Lakeside, a Quartet for Flute and Strings. Better quality sound file at https://soundcloud.com/williamcopper/0548_lakeside and score http://www.hartenshield.com/0548_lakeside.pdf
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  • Somehow I just can't think of the typical chant accompaniments by anyone or from any source as either lush or jubilant. Well, I take that back... maybe lush, but, um, 'lush' in a different sense (if you see what I'm saying). But certainly not jubilant. I can think of ways of accompanying chant that would be quite jubilant... but then, the chant would no longer be chant... but then, it isn't anyway when its accompanied in any fashion. The rhythmic freedom, elasticity, and spontaneity are gone

    And, Ben and Salieri are both right. Chant rhythm isn't metrical rhythm, but rhythm it has or it's dead, wooden.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    The closest I can think of, and its a far stretch from chant, is Durufle, but it is more like a polyphonic treatment.

    As far as the NOH, I believe it is one of the most 'pure' and austere forms of accompaniment this side of heaven (and maybe God has employed it over there too!)

    It alone was the inspiration for creating my hybrid notation. I'd do the whole NOH that way if I could eat while doing it.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    I'd do the whole NOH that way if I could eat while doing it.


    Is that a problem with hand-eye coordination?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Yea, the mouse, click, drag, thing is of the highest demand in creating these beasts. Can do nothing else for hours.
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    @ryand, it's beautiful, and if you finish writing this in a way that easily translates to SATB choir singing concisely at an EF (and the Kyrie looks like it does), then I will do my best to use it, during the upcoming Paschaltide (2015). When I say "do my best," I mean earnestly try it with my choir over multiple rehearsals to see whether they can do it justice. It would be ideal if ultimately you provide PDF(s) and midi files, so I can easily make recordings of separate parts for choir.

    If we can't do it justice in the time we have, then I would still be very keen to use it as an organ accompaniment during Paschaltide, this year.

    I suppose you wouldn't write a Credo, anyway, if you were just setting Lux et Origo; but just in case, to be quite honest, if you write both a Gloria and a Credo, and my choir sings the Mass chorally, then we'll probably just do a chant Credo, instead, this time around, for my sanity.

    I'll continue writing my own choral setting, either way, with intent to use it at some point this year, as well, but our settings are very different; and I love presenting contrasting music based on the same chants-- I love showing just what a magnificent source of inspiration the chants are. Yes, they are pure and holy and complete on their own, but they are also an endless source of musical (and spiritual) inspiration.

    M. Jackson Osborn, LOL at your "lush" comments.
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I can write them out as organ accompaniments and "explode" the score out to a proper SATB format.

    A few questions:

    Does your schola follow the practice of lengthening the note preceding the quillisma? And if so, would it be better to notate the preceding note as a quarter note?

    Are the mora and bipunctum ok notated a quarter notes, as in the Kyrie posted above? Or, if your choir is used to re-emphasizing the bipunctum, would it be better to notate as two eighths tied together? Or, is this a moot point if being sung chorally?

    Notate 3 repeats of the Kyrie since this is for EF?

    Would you need the Benedictus after the Sanctus?

    Which Credo would you chant, and would you want a similar accompaniment for that? Or will existing sources (NOH or something else) work for your tastes?



    And... if this were sung SATB, is it even conductable like this without time signatures? With some of the voices moving at odd places, it would be beastly to coordinate. I imagine the result of your labors in that would be sublime though.
    Thanked by 1shawnk
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    @ryand

    Lengthened Notes:
    Yes, as far as lengthening notes is concerned, we mostly follow the practices described in the Liber Usualis, and would prefer that the following notes be written as quarter notes:
    * 1st note of a quilisma grouping (i.e., the one before the squiggly)
    * dotted notes
    * the "middle" note of a salicus (i.e., the one with the vertical episema underneath it)
    * the top note of an ascending fifth, if it has a vertical episema (for example, the 2nd note of the first syllable of "Pleni" in the Sanctus from Mass I)
    * a note with a horizontal episema over it (for example, each of the first three notes of "Christe" in the Kyrie from Mass I); or you could notate these three notes as a triplet, if you prefer.

    Really, what you've posted, above, for the Kyrie is quite workable, though.

    The Kyrie:
    If you wish, you can notate a repeat of the first of each grouping, in the Kyrie, to make it more EF-choir-friendly (3-3-3), or I can just tell my choir to repeat. ;)

    Staves:
    No need to expand it to 4 staves as long as you (or I) have room to notate the text for the other voices.

    The Sanctus:
    Yes, we would need the Sanctus and the Benedictus. Here is a link to the full chant (Sanctus-Benedictus): http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/12/06/19/16-12-13_0.pdf

    In the 1962 EF, if the Sanctus-Benedictus is sung in chant, then it is sung all together; but if it is sung in polyphony, then the Sanctus section is sung at the usual time, and the Benedictus section is saved until after the Consecration. Thus, you may want to make a sort of logical breaking point before the Benedictus text (i.e., after the 1st "Hosanna in excelsis," just in case a choir chooses to break it, there. You don't necessarily have to notate a break, there, but I would definitely recommend ensuring that the music makes sense with or without a complete break.

    Time Signatures:
    Looks brilliant, as is. The beauty here is that you've kept the rhythm of the chant intact; hence, the conductor can basically just conduct the chant.

    I just conducted through this several times, and had no trouble at all; and wow-- conducting this piece gives me chills.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Short work day, so had time to write this Agnus Dei.

    Let me know if the notation works according to what you wrote above RE: lengthening of notes.

    Also for the movement of voices. I tried to keep it as uncluttered as possible, but without leaving lines "too independent" (at one point the alto could be a dotted whole note, but it loses the visual clarity of being held over as other voices move).


    [For posterity: This is very different than I would normally harmonize a Mode IV chant, but here's a shot at "Lush and Jubilant"]


    EDIT: Alto line, last note on first page should be a C#
    1 Agnus.pdf
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    agnus1full.mp3
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    agnus1flute.mp3
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The pickup notes in the lower voices could be however long or brief you'd like, obviously the performance rhythms in this are not as stringent as the mp3s sound.
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Sorry for delay in responding, @ryand. Yes, that notation works!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Sanctus
    sanctus1.pdf
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    sanctus1.mp3
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Benedictus

    The mp3 makes the 3rd beat sound harshly dissonant but it plays and sings fine on any sound options on my keyboard.

    Also, I didn't notate the quilismas in these last 2. There are just a few of them, but they're annoying to make in this notation. Chances are I'm going to get obsessive with this and revise everything and renotate it all in one big pretty file anyway so I'll get around to it then.
    1 Benedictus.pdf
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  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Lovely.
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    @ryand, attached is partial reading of the Kyrie from rehearsal, yesterday. Choir had never seen it before, and the inner voices made some amusing facial expressions. "But we don't have words!!" Ha ha.

    This is what it sounded like towards the end of rehearsal, but I increased the tempo of the recording a bit to give a better idea of the tempo I'd actually use in performance.
    01-17-15 mass i kyrie dingess sight reading.mp3
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    That's beautiful. Are they just holding out related vowel sounds?
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Non-soprano parts were singing "ooh" and "ah" in this recording. Can't really hear the tenors, here, but I thought you'd enjoy it anyway.
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Here is a midi of the Gloria. I did what I could to mimic stop changes. The score is going to take some time to make presentable, but you can at least listen to it for now.
    1gloria.mp3
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  • This is so exciting @ryand! I'm wanting to introduce this Mass to the choir/congregation for the first time at Easter, and I think this sounds lovely so far! We could probably, definitely use this. :) Thank you!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Gloria score

    The midi "changes stops" more often than indicated in the score here. I figure those decisions are best left to the organist, in consideration of their own abilities and the instrument at hand. I've noted where I imagine the pedals being used prominently.
    I Gloria.pdf
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  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Speaking of midi, any chance you could share the audio of each piece in mid format so I can create learning aides for the choir, more easily?
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Also, typo in Benedictus: should be "in nomine domini" rather than "in nomine domine." FYI.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I can't export midi from Sibelius (where these were notated). I can from Musescore. Don't ask me to explain why.

    The recording of the Gloria came from Musescore. I do have a midi of that. But when I exported it into Sibelius it came out very strange, consolidating voices and mixing them up. The end result of each stacked harmony was correct, but how it appeared was not the same. I don't know how helpful that would be for making practice recordings. It might be simpler for you to just play through each voice, or combination, and record that.
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  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    Ryan, even if just the Gloria, I'd love to have the Gloria in Musescore format; or if you'd prefer, I can work with the midi file, funky and chunky though it be. Trust me: either one will save me time.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Here's the midi. If you want to PM me your email I'll send you the musescore file. I can't attach it here.

    If you export the midi into whatever program, make sure you check it against the pdf score because it moves some voices around
    I Gloria.mid
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