Use of organ on weekdays of Advent 3
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Is solo organ permitted on the weekdays following Gaudete Sunday, in the same vein as use of Propers follows the Sunday before?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I don't believe so, but that's just off the top of my head.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Doing so would not really be following the spirit of the season, no.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    There's not actually a ban on solo organ music during Advent.

    The relevant citation states during LENT and at Requiem masses. It does not include Advent, though it might have pre-Vatican II.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Where on earth do some of you come up with these ancient "laws" and try to apply them to a different world, different time, different culture, different set of rubrics and different Ordos of the Church? There is no ban on solo organ during Advent, but I try to keep it centered on Advent hymns and music fitting the season. Next, someone will suggest we all go back to wearing pointed-toe shoes and doublets. LOL.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Well Charles, I believe the GIRM (or is it some other document?) specifically mentions Lent and Requiem masses. It doesn't mention Advent though.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    I don't know what form Clerget is celebrating. But on cviii of my Liber is Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites 3 Sept. 1958, which as far as I can see applies to the EF. And it says no organ in Advent, except Gaudete. And at 4c " The music of the organ or harmonium is also allowed at Mass and Vespers solely to support the singing" which is a loophole almost as big as "cantus alius altus." So as I read it, no organ on ferias in Advent including the week of Gaudete.

    SHOULD it apply to the Ordinary Form? If it's not in the GIRM, that's your personal taste in mutual enrichment. I don't call the GIRM saying that organ is mandatory for anything.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    don't just site the document paste it.

    Here is the verbiage from the Roman Missal III Edition.
    313. "... In Advent the use of the organ and other musical instruments should be marked by a moderation
    suited to the character of this time of year, without expressing in anticipation the full joy of the
    Nativity of the Lord.
    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the
    singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts."


    So its not just made up archaic law from years past it is written in the latest document, that the accompaniment in Advent should be marked in moderation.
    Although this language is not as strong as that of Lent, I believe you can figure out what its intent.

    Now my personal feeling is that no musical instrument played during Lent (everything A Capella) and limited accompaniment during Advent, but that me not necessarily the docs.
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Musicam Sacram 66 is not an "ancient law."
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  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The new GIRM surely supercedes it where it is contradictory, and as cited above, it clearly does not include Advent in the section banning instrumental music.
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  • donr
    Posts: 971
    PGA, I don't believe anyone is stating that organ should be banned, but it should definitely be used in moderation. What does that mean.
    I would think it means not quite as drastic as "only to support the singing" but not what you would do on a normal Sunday and no where near what you would do for the Celebration of Christmas. Advent is a supposed to be different sounding than Christmas Season, just as Lent is supposed to sound different than Easter.
    Don't pull out all the stops, save it for the Celebration of Christmas.

  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    what about the bundle of seeds and nuts used on a cymbal? Is that allowed during Advent?
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  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Where on earth do some of you come up with these ancient "laws" and try to apply them to a different world, different time, different culture, different set of rubrics and different Ordos of the Church?


    It's like wearing a kilt when playing the Bagpipes. Rules out the occasional Speedo freak.

    what about the bundle of seeds and nuts used on a cymbal? Is that allowed during Advent?
    Sounds like a question for the Purple Squirrel.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I don't play postludes during Advent, and certainly never use the trumpet stop. Things need to be a little more sedate than that. No playing at all during Lent other than for accompaniment, since GIRM is quite clear on that.

    Musicam Sacram 66 is not an "ancient law."


    MS is irrelevant and has been superseded by GIRM. That authority now belongs to the conferences of bishops and Rome willingly gave it up, as best I can tell.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    That can't be correct. The GIRM's footnotes cite Musicam sacram, so it is apparently still somewhat relevant.

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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    That can't be correct. The GIRM's footnotes cite Musicam sacram, so it is apparently still somewhat relevant.


    Relevant where it doesn't conflict with GIRM. When in conflict or where GIRM presents another view or interpretation, then irrelevant.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Glad to see a little nuance developing in your interpretations! :-)
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    So, the safe answer would be: it's possible but make sure it's not too joyful, and in the spirit of hoping/waiting. I think I'll just go with "no" and use the organ sparingly other than for accompanying singing. Sounds like a safer course of action.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I have enough organ scores of versions of "Wachet Auf" and "Savior of the Nations Come" to never run out of Advent music.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I've been using a subdued, quiet improvisation on Salve Regina (postlude) on ferial days so far.

    Edited: misspelled ferial earlier. Darn autocorrect.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    "MS is irrelevant"
    We get to chuck Conciliar documents at will? Including the Creed? Hey, I'm an Arian! C'mon St. Nick, hit me with your best shot!
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Well, MS is post-conciliar.
    Thanked by 2Ben Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Conciliar documents at will? Including the Creed?


    You Latins have already messed up the Creed. Filioque, my foot! LOL.

    There are many documents and many conflicts in those documents with current legislation and practice - even to the point that trying to find common ground gets difficult, if not impossible. I take GIRM as a starting point since, like it or not, the bishops do have legitimate authority for liturgy. That doesn't mean I personally approve of everything they legislate.

    I have noted that parts of MS not in conflict with current legislation may still have validity. Granted, Rome has relinquished much of its authority over liturgy and given it to the conferences of bishops. The bishops did not take that authority from Rome at gunpoint, it was willingly given to them. There is an irrelevance of practice that affects MS rendering it obsolete in practice. It simply has been abandoned and is no longer followed in many if not most places. Aside from little outposts such as this place, most have probably never heard of it.
  • shawnk
    Posts: 57
    @ClergetKubisz, if you're asking about the OF, then I can't comment on that; but if you're asking about the 1962 EF, then--as a rule-- organ would only be allowed in order to support the voices, on those days, per De Musica Sacra (1958):

    80. The playing of the organ, and even more, of other instruments, is an embellishment of the sacred liturgy; for that reason they should be accommodated to the varying degrees of joy in different liturgical seasons, and feast days.

    81. Accordingly, the playing of the organ, and all other instruments is forbidden for liturgical functions, except Benediction, during the following times:

    a) Advent, from first Vespers of the first Sunday of Advent until None of the Vigil of Christmas;

    b) Lent and Passiontide, from Matins of Ash Wednesday until the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo in the Solemn Mass of the Easter Vigil;

    c) the September Ember days if the ferial Mass and Office are celebrated;

    d) in all Offices and Masses of the Dead.

    82. Only the organ may be used on the Sundays of Septuagesima, Sexagesima, and Quinquagesima, and on the ferial days following these Sundays.

    83. However, during the seasons, and days just mentioned, the following exceptions to the rule may be made:

    a) the organ may be played, and other instruments used on holy days of obligation, and holidays (except Sundays), on the feasts of the principal local patron saint, the titular day, and the dedication anniversary of the local church, the titular or founder's day of a religious congregation, and on the occasion of some extraordinary solemnity;

    b) the organ only (including the harmonium or reed organ) may be used on the third Sunday of Advent, and the fourth Sunday of Lent, on Thursday of Holy Week during the Mass of Chrism, and during the solemn evening Mass of the Last Supper from the beginning to the end of the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo;

    c) the organ only may be used at Mass, and Vespers for the sole purpose of supporting the singing.

    Local Ordinaries may determine more precisely the application of these prohibitions, and permissions according to the approved local or regional customs.

    84. Throughout the Sacred Triduum, from the midnight before Holy Thursday until the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo of the Solemn Mass of the Easter Vigil, the organ or harmonium shall remain completely silent, excepting the instance mentioned in paragraph 83b.

    This prohibition holds even for private devotions during the Sacred Triduum; no exceptions or contrary custom are to be tolerated.

    85. Pastors and others in charge must not fail to explain to the people the meaning of this liturgical silence. They should also take care that during these seasons, and particular days the other liturgical restrictions on decorating the altar are likewise observed.

    (translation from http://www.adoremus.org/1958Intro-sac-mus.html#sthash.HNUHiQQj.dpuf)
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    quiet improvisation on Salve Regina (postlude)


    You could also use the Marian antiphon of the season, Alma Redemptoris Mater (that is, if you are going to play.)
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    This brings up a question: when during Lent can you play the beautiful lenten organ works - im thinking of the Bach O Mench Bewein...etc.?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Laetare and at various devotions.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Don't forget Stations of the Cross followed by Benediction, which we have on all Lenten Fridays. You can play whatever you like then, and I usually work that number in somewhere.
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