Liturgical Neckties
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    As I dress for Holy Mass, I've discovered I'm not the only one with this idea (I didn't imagine I was): Liturgical neckties!

    Anybody else implement this for their own attire? (I wouldn't mind switching to a lay cassock, but until then...) Are there ties made from similar fabric or designs as liturgical vestments? Since many insist we are ministers, is there a proper way to handle musician dress? Would albs or cassocks with surplices be more appropriate? I just want to know my options.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Romantic Strings


    Since many insist we are ministers


    Many people make such a claim. They make it without any basis in reality, and the Holy See has strongly spoken against the nearly arbitrary expansion of the word "minister".

  • JonLaird
    Posts: 242
    I have solid red, purple, black, rose, and gold ties, which I often wear to match the liturgical color (gold for white). I don't do that for ordinary time, though. My church (which is fairly large, holding up to 1200) is completely covered in green carpet and the pews are padded with green upholstery. I'm pretty sick of green.

    My choristers have caught on and several often dress with shades of the liturgical color (again ignoring ordinary time, though). I thought it might be kitschy the first time some of them did, but they actually end up looking quite elegant. But they have all always dressed very respectfully. Our choir is unfortunately placed right in front and so they are quite visible.

    I would not wear a tie with images like crosses or hosts or a picture of Jesus or something on it, nor would I want it to resemble patterns on vestments. But that's just me.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    If you are not an ordained cleric vested at Mass it doesn't matter what color you are. Trying to turn your tie into a musician's chasuble, dalmatic, or tunicle is odd. Wear a cassock and surplice, alb, or a suit with an appropriate and subdued tie. Don't call attention to yourself. Do not change the color of your cassock by liturgical season if you wear one.

    Your congregation does not need more visual stimulation to get them to understand liturgical colors.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I like to wear a shirt or tie of the appropriate color. But I don't always. And when I do, I try not to make sure I tell everyone about it or post about it on the internet.

    Wearing a red tie on Pentecost (or whatever) is supposed to be about having fun and getting into the spirit of things a bit, not about making statements and such.
    Thanked by 2Steve Collins PaxMelodious
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Exactly, Adam. I do it sometimes. For example, my schola sang at a mass on Sts. Peter and Paul's feast, and due to the situation, we had to be visible, so I had them all wear a red tie/scarf so we matched. Not as some sort of weird faux vestments, but because red was as good a color as any to make us match.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    I do have a mantilla to match the liturgical season. This season lifetime I'll be wearing black.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I often wore a tie that reflected liturgical colors. It wasn't a statement about being a minister or anything like that, simply an expression of my affinity with our Catholic tradition.
    Thanked by 6Steve Collins Spriggo melofluent JacobFlaherty Ally M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Anything like Bowtie Friday?
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    CROOKED BOWTIE?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    My favorite hymn tune.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    I try to avoid the current liturgical color when I get dressed on Sundays.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    I do the same.

    Though today I wore a blue tie, which might be me reminiscing of Advent back in Canada...
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I just usually wear a white shirt.
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    I guess I don't see a problem with wearing the liturgical color, even on purpose. I don't do it as some statement about being a minister, but because I have those choices in my wardrobe and I might feel like wearing them that day, or not.

    My whole family wore purple yesterday, because we are starting to teach our 3 year-old daughter what Advent is about, and things like that really click with young children. She could tell you what colours she saw at Mass yesterday (and that the priest wore purple too, and "changed his clothes"...after the Asperges...), that there are 3 purple candles and one pink (her favourite), that she smelled incense and heard bells, and that the entrance chant was "Ad te levavi".
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Tie color?
    Tempest in a teapot.
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    I do this from time to time as an inside joke with my schola. The great thing about directing the schola and being stuck learning the organ is that most of the congregation never sees me. I have a professor friend in my schola who likes to make jokes, so sometimes I will wear liturgical colors to mess with him. This is exactly my plan on Gaudete Sunday when I wear my purple shirt and ROSE tie. :P
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    I understand people who want to hold a liturgical necktie party, but I think that's a little extreme (and a mortal sin.)
    Thanked by 2chonak CharlesW
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Liturgical neckties constitute grave matter?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Not as grave as tambourines. Close, though.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    What if I brought a maypole?
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    What about tambourines during Comfort, Comfort?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Comfort, Comfort? I hear a hammered dulcimer. Or maybe a dulcimer being played by a hammered French Norman....
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    How about an organist sight-reading it, wondering about the "syncopations."

    Relatedly, does anyone else bounce when trying to illustrate how it goes?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    If you're hearing syncopations, then you're not understanding the meter, which is 6/4 with every other (ie. even numbered) bar a hemiola. In the odd numbered bars the stress is on the first and fourth beats, while in the even numbered bars the stress is on beats one and three (the fifth beat, when articulated in the even numbered bars, is unstressed).

    Alternatively, think of alternating 6/4 & 3/2 bars, with a fixed tactus for the crotchets (quarter notes).

    Such beat patterns of triple time with regularly interspersed hemiolas were quite common in earlier music and are much to be appreciated for what they are in contrast with slavishly repititious duple or quadruple (or even triple) rhythmic patterns.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    RS, I wouldn't call the rhythmic formula of GENEVA "syncopation." It's more akin to the hemiola effect, except it simply alternates 3/2 in a first measure = two strong beats; second measure = three strong beats.
    Maybe one of our resident theorists knows this technique by a specific term.
    Bouncing is definitely not part of the equation. In point of fact, with GENEVA I insist on even more strenuous legato along with precise diction.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    I agree about the metric nature of the piece, but that was the word the organist used (a great, capable organist, but was unprepared for this piece, though had warning).

    CHGiffen is correct in labeling it hemiola. It doesn't always seem clear to me if there are differences in labeling for submetric versus supermetric hemiolas, though.

    Bouncing hasn't seemed to help. Mostly they just laugh. Strenuous legato... I like that.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Regarding the "ministerial" association of any non-PIP lay roles at Mass, I just saw a book in my sacristy about the ministry of the sacristan. What are the Church's actual thoughts about whether all of these roles we fill are ministerial or simply functional? I haven't liked the idea of the music ministry, as if it's a separate part that gets added. However, I know that what to call the role is hotly debated. I'm curious about our own thoughts as well as what the Church actually has to say about it.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    All Catholics are ministers. All Catholics are priests. Not all Catholics are ministerial priests (or priestly ministers).
    Thanked by 2RomanticStrings eft94530
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Aha. Clear as mud.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    generally:

    Lay people engage in apostolate. The clergy engage in ministry.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago eft94530
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Ooh. Apostolate. That's the word! Would we then work in the apostolate of music, the music(al) apostolate, or or would we be a music(al) apostle/apostolate?
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Hmm... the lay apostolate is all-encompassing, isn't it. Not to be divvied up, that is, into sections.

    I know some dislike the term "director" for what we do, as it is both too specific and too cold, but it does seem to avoid these theological errors.

    Perhaps there is a parallel to the sacristan/lector/cantor titling scheme. Musician would be it, of course, but in the English language it already has too many conflicting meanings.

    The Latin "musicus" would be fitting, but it would take a while for it to feel right.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    "Music Minister" is a decidedly Protestant coinage, from a culture where all leaders are some type of minister: Worship minister, children's minister, etc.

    Catholics seem to have adopted the titles "Music Minister" and "Youth Minister" along with the Protestant model for running these activities.

    I don't think there is anything exceptionally wrong with the titles, but the baggage they bring with them is somewhat problematic, as this the potential for unfortunate theological understandings.

    If "minister" was the only appropriate word available in English, or if there had been a long-standing Catholic use of the word, then the concerns around it could be dealt with.

    Since there are more important things in life than to have to constantly explain what you mean by "minister" in this context, I don't see any value in NOT using the more theologically neutral and technically accurate "Director of Music."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    There is some discussion of terminology in a little-known but valuable 1997 document on lay collaboration in the ministry of the clergy:
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

    It makes some points about the meaning of "ministry"; it acknowledges the term "extraordinary minister", for use when certain liturgical roles are deputed to lay people, but otherwise reserves "ministry" to the work commissioned by Christ to the ministers ordained in apostolic succession.

    In particular it directs that lay people and non-ordained religious not be given titles such as "chaplain" or "moderator", which imply a type of authority which, in the Church, belongs to the pastor. Of course in practice some compromises must be made: some of the institutions that hire religious workers (e.g., hospitals, colleges, and the military) sometimes use the title "chaplain" for lay religious workers also, and there is not much to be gained from trying to correct them.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor CHGiffen eft94530
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    However, the 1981 apostolic exhortation Familiaris Consortio of Pope St. John Paul II threw the proverbial wrench into the Church's understanding of ministry. Several times it says that spouses or families exercise a true ministry of education and/or evangelization. So the laity are empowered by the Holy Spirit to a ministry which is beyond that of collaborating in the ministry of the clergy.
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn matthewj PaxMelodious
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    .
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    I bought this for a friend...and he loved it.

    http://www.zazzle.com/music_lover_gregorian_chant_sheet_music_necktie-151590456766055720
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    And a year goes by and I bump this Discussion
    in order to resume the talk about Liturgical Ties
    both Long Ties
    and Bow Ties
    ... and their convergence (no scissors).

    While wearing ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnOSEnP_L6g

    In advance ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZuaaxk5_24
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Instead of merely liturgical ties, why not musical ties ... to keep the listener in "suspense," at least for a moment or two? That would make a nice New Year "resolution."

    image
    Giffen-In manus tuas, Domine-p6.png
    2550 x 3300 - 119K
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I've torn my vatican flag tie into a bow tie before...kinda fun.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I feel like this would irreparably crease and wrinkle my tie.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Adam: irreparably crease and wrinkle my tie.

    Today using Dockers 100 % silk tie
    to conduct a six-hour test using the four-folds and knot technique.

    Barely wrinkled in spot where the vertical knot tightens.

    I think my Christmas Season deserves a new experience.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I feel like this would irreparably crease and wrinkle my tie.


    It's a cheap tie, so I'm not overly worried about this. That being said, the best bet is just buying a real bow tie.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Or not wearing bow ties
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood matthewj CHGiffen Spriggo
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Makes me wish I was a guy.
    Though obviously not in a gender confused - god's plan denying sort of way.
    Just mean it looks like fun with fabric. ;-) 8
    Thanked by 3eft94530 irishtenor CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    ryand: Or not wearing bow ties

    No soup Colloquium tardis for you.

    As the first video guy says, expand your wardrobe without expanding your budget.
    But, if someone wants to Secret Santa to me
    then google for about 45 seconds to discover my parish street address.

    Bonnie, timestamp 0:40:34 is a datapoint on the spectrum;
    might something like that tie be workable for you?
    ;-) 8
    Great Expectations (1946)
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038574/
    https://archive.org/details/GreatExpectations1946
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thats some bowtie!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    By the way, I totally turned my necktie into a bowtie today at school. The kids got a kick out of it.
    Thanked by 2Ben eft94530
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    By the way, if you're looking for more, I have a nice sized collection from The Tie Bar and would recommend them. They also sell through amazon, but I couldn't find an easy way to link to them there.

    Edit: Found a link to amazon.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I refuse to spend Tie Bar prices for them, but I am so cheap you wouldn't believe it, anyway. LOL. I shop around and find them for half that price at the discount stores.
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