You're So Vain...
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    MJO, I'm otherwise with you, but "delivery"?

    Maybe, instead, "preparation" for the graces which are present, even for us poor music makers.

    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn PurpleSquirrel
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,506
    Correction:
    Ah, now this discussion becomes a inamabilis sciurus of a different color, purple, indeed!
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • PurpleSquirrelPurpleSquirrel
    Posts: 165
    You gotta teach me how to do that, Noel...
  • PurpleSquirrelPurpleSquirrel
    Posts: 165
    Melo - Gregory would never use the term "vain". No, I've only heard this word from certain members of Ukulele Fury. (Not all of them, though. God bless them, the whole bunch. They are a very dedicated, tight group. Family, actually.)

    I always wondered about the history of sacred music during the Reformation, and if there was ever a time where music in the Church was actually frowned upon.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,486
    ....actually frowned upon.

    Forgive me for not looking up just who and when, but there has been no shortage of churchmen of all ranks, times, and places, who were everything from displeased to livid over new-fangled musical treatments of sacred chant, screeching singers, savaging of textual clarity, and just about anything that has developed in the realm of sacred music since the discovery of organum. Some were even opposed to chant itself and, like some 'reformers' of the renaissance, thought any music an unholy vanity which led directly to liturgical abuse and the peril of souls.
    Thanked by 3Gavin CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 301
    Purple Squirrel asks:

    I always wondered about the history of sacred music during the Reformation, and if there was ever a time where music in the Church was actually frowned upon.


    Well, I don't think Zwinglians ever tolerated liturgical music. (Zwingli himself is supposed to have overseen the destruction of at least one much-loved Zurich organ.)

    But Calvinist attitudes to such music were more ambiguous. If memory serves me, Sweelinck was employed for years as chief organist at a Calvinist church in Amsterdam, not to play during the service, but to play after the service. Which he did with great virtuosic flair, acquiring admirers from northern and central Europe as well as in his homeland.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,795
    Organists in Calvinist Holland were (and often still are) a civic, not ecclesial position.

    I wish there were more civic organists. Or on here I'd sometimes settle for civil organists.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW PurpleSquirrel
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,486
    More about 'frowned upon'....

    Considering the vociferous objections both past and present to polyphonic and classical era masses as unfit for liturgy due to length, lack of textual clarity, elitism, lack of people's participation, obscurance of liturgical flow, and so on, it is curious, isn't it?, that these voices are silent about present day rock bands, pop-combos, and unsingable or demeaning faux folk music, and the teen 'I'll-only-go-to-mass-if-they-play-my-music' syndrome, and so on. (I hasten to add: teens are not the only ones with this vain and narcissistic syndrome, and, many of them don't suffer from it. Frowning upon the real music of the Church is alive and well.)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    You know, Jackson, I understand the general "tenor" of your analysis. However, there is actual evidence aplenty from many quarters RCC and denominational/evangelical that "comfort food/Teddy Bear" music AND worship is starting to wear out its welcome and is unraveling. (That's kind of an oxymmoron as the P&W emperor has no clothes!) I have on numerous occasions posted links to op-eds from many, really many blogs where not only are the professionals finding that model wanting, but so are the PIPs. I have one such post over at the Cafe that highlights two critical articles from non-Catholic authors that have resonance to RCC practices, and it seems no one gives a rip about this shift, at least publicly.
    OTOH, I believe that the overwhelming reality in most parishes will remain "Dial-a-Mass." And if that remains the standard, then whatever repertoire is to be used at given Masses must be the best of its genre, and performed and led at the highest levels. YMMV
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,486
    .
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    Considering the vociferous objections both past and present to polyphonic and classical era masses as unfit for liturgy due to length, lack of textual clarity, elitism, lack of people's participation, obscurance of liturgical flow, and so on, it is curious, isn't it?, that these voices are silent about present day rock bands, pop-combos, and unsingable or demeaning faux folk music


    Why shouldn't they be? By the standards of "too elite", the short, 7/11 (7 words repeated 11 times; how's that for "textual clarity"?) , populist sacropop is singing with the mind of the Church, scary as that thought may be.
    Thanked by 2melofluent PurpleSquirrel
  • francis
    Posts: 11,178
    "populist sacropop is singing with the mind of the Church"

    I hope this was a purple phrase
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,506
    I'm afraid it was not!

    Clergy who want people to be happy with them are the cause.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,911
    Melo's right on the money with choirs rehearsing the same thing week in and week out and calling it progress. If you don't ever do anything different, how can you get better?
    Thanked by 3StimsonInRehab PurpleSquirrel Salieri
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    francis, I'm pretty sure JQ was assessing the "state of mind" from the populist POV, and he's right. Illustration-
    Yesterday a new parochial vicar presided over our two morning Masses at the mother church. When I met him earlier in the week, the first thing he asked was "Will you help me to better sing the orations?" So far, so good. Back to yesterday. He heard the Schola/Choir Mass, SEP and Rice Propers, ICEL Kyrie/Glory, Giffen's Missa Ascensionis Dom., Kwasniewski "Tantum ergo II," and a couple of solid hymns. After that he remarked "That was beautiful" then launched into concerns about the ambo mic being soft.
    Next Mass, ensemble/contemporary. Afterwards he came up like Tony the Tiger, "THAT WAS GREAT!!! WOW, THAT WAS FUN."
    Forgot to mention, new Reverend Father is about my age.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel Jeffrey Quick
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,676
    Melo... Maybe suggest he make the trek out here in January for the Winter Chant Intensive? :)

    We are just a short drive!
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Ahead of you, MJM, already sent a memo to priests early last week. The new guy replied, saying he wasn't interested in chanting the Latin Mass, sigh.....didn't hear from the other two.
    Thinking about coming, still, my own self, just to get out of Dodge.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,506
    It may be prudent to ask a priest if he has ever been part of a Latin Mass. That gives you a chance to interest him if he has not, overcome his objections if he has.

    Fear of the unknown ranks right up there with the fear of looking silly to his peers.

    Everyone should have at hand the diocesan directory of the priests, which lists the years they graduated from seminary. When you get a new priest, you check out those who attended during the time period that he was in seminary. You find one or more that use SEP, chant the Latin Mass..whatever and then when you talk to him you drop that "Fr. So and So does this...do you known him?" This really, really works.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen PurpleSquirrel
  • PurpleSquirrelPurpleSquirrel
    Posts: 165
    That is a grand idea. Get the "Who's on first, What's on second" of the Archdiocese. Now, where could I get one of those directories...? O, what am I thinking? Of course!

    Mom.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,676
    The Latin Mass will not be covered as a part of the Winter Chant Intensive. Maybe resend it?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    I don't think he actually read the MS announcement thoroughly. He did state he prefers "one on one" coaching. He don't know me vewy well, do he?
    Heck, I even said I'd drive the Magnum LandJet for any priest coming wi' me.
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