Christus Vincit Organ Score?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Anyone have an organ accompaniment to this version of Christus Vincit? Even something with different verses or no verses would be helpful.

    image
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This is great, Ben. Thanks. There's also a similar version at Abel di Marco's website if you need different verses: http://www.mipucpr.org/cantoral/wp-content/uploads/ChrisVinPoC.pdf
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    Well, you found one, but in case anyone is interested, OCP actually has one in their Spanish hymnal.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    I am shocked by the use of solfege syllables in fixed do to represent chords in another key. Seems like a very questionable practice.

    And bar 5 has that IV-V problem, where the D (third of IV) is properly tuned low and the G (fifth of V) is properly tuned high, so no one can sing it without an equal tempered instrument crashing along to force the connection.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Using solfege syllables for chord symbols is a common practice for Latino musicians. Ask a guitarist from Mexico to play an "A7" chord, and he may not know what you are talking about. Ask him to play a "La7" chord, and he plays A7 immediately.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Ben CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    yup. It's like a whole other language.
    Thanked by 2Ben tomjaw
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Don't worry too much about the img in the first post. It was just the first image on google images that I could find to illustrate what I needed.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    This article has a handy table of the correspondences of naming systems for keys:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature_names_and_translations
  • And bar 5 has that IV-V problem, where the D (third of IV) is properly tuned low and the G (fifth of V) is properly tuned high, so no one can sing it without an equal tempered instrument crashing along to force the connection.


    These statements are not helpful to people in this group. Your dislike for equal temperament because it causes singers to sing out of tune is just silly. Singers do not work to sing in tune with keyboards instead they sing the natural intervals that occur in the harmonic series. The worst thing that can happen here due to your postings is that there are those here who might feel inferior because they are unaware that this "problem" exists.

    Yes, you could go around and intimidate singers by pounding notes on the piano and telling them not to sing these pitches - but they do not.

    Bring me proof in writing that experts in the field - Robert Shaw, for example - fought with this problem and I'll consider it. But my best teacher worked with Margaret Hillis and Sarah Caldwell and this is a topic that never came up.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Chonak raises a good point. It appears the site that the image is hosted on is not in english, which would explain the different convention.
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 207
    Nice, here's mine, just an editing of the Montani, if anyone needs it and I can change any names to protect the guilt........innocent.
  • If anyone wants an accompaniment for the grown-up Christus Vincit, here's Brager's version from Caecilia, March 1936.
  • We aren't snobs, so we sing the A. Kunc version of Christus Vincit without hesitation for processions. With that preface, here is some interesting material.

    Prof. Kantorowicz of UC Berkeley, a mediævalist, became deeply interested in the Laudes Regiæ after hearing a report that it was sung at a massive rally for Mussolini in the early 1930s. His fascination culminated in the book, Laudes Regiae: A Study in Liturgical Acclamations and Mediaeval Rular Worship, with a study of the music of the Laudes and musical transcription by Manfred F. Bukofzer (1946). Bukofzer comments as follows.
    There are at least two modern versions of the laudes, both printed in Chant Divers (see note 1) The first, the “short acclamations,” is a modern chant composition by A. Kunc which unfortunately enjoys official sanction. In an eclectic manner the music of the tricolon is composed around the common chord. The composer has rearranged the words to the following:

    Christus vincit, Christus regnat,
    Christus, Christus imperat.

    Through this small but telling change the austere strength of the three invocations has been sacrificed for a shallow symmetry of meter which the composer apparently held to be more “pleasing.” The arrangement of Kunc’s melody in four-part harmony by Nicola A. Montani (see note 2) inflates the composition in a pseudo-Verdi style which is beyond criticism.

    Notes:
    ------
    1 F. Tourte and M. Kaltnecker (3d ed.; Tournai, Desclee & Cie. 1924), pp. 251, 252. (Not scanned online)
    2. The St. Gregory Hymnal, comp. by Nicola A. Montani (rev. ed.; Philadelphia The St. Gregory Guild, Inc., 1940), No. 310.
    ------
    Postscript:
    What's interesting is that the source used by Dr. Bukofzer is Chant Divers (a collection of chants similar to the Cantus Selecti). I have uploaded a scan of the song from this book. As you can see, although the song is entirely metrical and modally common, it is presented as chant with Solesmes rhythmic markings. My impression is that this transcription was an attempt to bolster the legitimacy of the A. Kunc melody in a Tra le Sollecitudini world.

    The composer to whom this melody is attributed is Aloys Kunc (1832-1895) of Toulouse, maître de chapelle de Notre-Dame des Victoires. He is the father of Aymé Kunc (1877-1958), an accomplished musician and composer of lovely French stuff.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Your dislike for equal temperament because it causes singers to sing out of tune is just silly.


    You just can't get it, I guess, CB. It's not equal temperament I oppose, it's bad writing. The fifth I pointed out is flawed by other rules than mine; my methods just show the problem efficiently.

    William
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 160
    Apologies for resurrecting an old thread. My question is this: is there an original harmonisation for this piece? Or is the original work of Kunc just the melody?

    I'm fixing up a book of public domain chant music, and this piece seemed like a perfect fit for a small space, just the chorus, but seems to be hundreds of arrangements available.

    Also, wikipedia attributes the piece to Jan Kunc in 1933 article on Jan Kunc.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Are you talking about in my edition that I posted in the second comment? It was quick and dirty... I simply took the harmonization from a midi file I found somewhere... I believe I have seen a very similar harm other places as PD, but don't take my word for it.

  • I have Richard Keys Biggs and Gerre Hancock's arrangements.
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 160
    I guess I can just put in the melody. It would be good to have a four part arrangement to put in, but with so many different versions it seems hard to pick one because I want to make sure a) it's a public domain harmonisation and b) it is musically good - my level of music theory isn't real great for evaluating harmonies.

    The Montani version seems most likely to be safe copyright wise, but
    inflates the composition in a pseudo-Verdi style which is beyond criticism.
    (quoted in Arthur Connick's post above) makes it sound like it might not be the best choice musically.
  • Coe
    Posts: 2
    Hi.
    wikipedia attributes the piece to Jan Kunc in 1933

    Did anyone find out if the composer is Aloys Kunc (1832-1895) or Aloys Kunc (1832-1895), given that wikipedia page @veromary posted?

    My impression is that this transcription was an attempt to bolster the legitimacy of the A. Kunc melody in a Tra le Sollecitudini world

    What is the issue between this famous melody for Christus Vincit and Tra le Sollecitudini, as brought to attention by @Arthur Connick?

    solfege syllables in fixed do to represent chords

    I remember a singing teacher in the US looking very confused and one in Canada looking amazed when I was singing with fixed Do. In many countries, or languages such as Portuguese and French, this is the standard practice. In Brazil, when I was doing an undergraduate degree, everyone in my class was surprised when the teacher talked about movable Do. For us, Do means C. So, saying "movable Do" is like saying "movable C". It is strange to se a Re (D) on the score and saying it is a Do (C) because it is in Re Major (D Major).
    That said, fixed Do doesn't mean the music cannot be transposed. That what happens with transposing instruments. The clarinet reads a Re (D) but it sounds a Do (C). What fixed Do means is that on the staff the Do (C) is fixed. So, whatever transposition is used, the place of Do (C) on the score is the same.
    However, for chords, although it is correct to also name them as Do major, Re minor, etc., it has become common to name them using the English alphabetical system.
    PS: I wasn't able to open the scores @mrcopper might have been referring to.