“Simple Latin Propers”?
  • Hi everyone,

    Is there a resource like Bartlett “Simple English Propers” but in Latin (Ordinary Form)?
  • Clarification: I know about the Graduale Simplex … I am wanting propers rather than seasonal antiphons.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,308
    Richard Rice has composed some simplified propers for the 1962 missal; in many cases, they can be used for the corresponding OF Masses.

    The Chants Abreges provide simplified graduals, tracts, and alleluias, again for the EF.

    There's also an easier option in the 1955 book Graduals, Alleluia Verses, and Tracts which sets them all to psalm tones.
  • BGP
    Posts: 213
    Yes as chonak says there are many EF resources, to use them in the Ordinary form simply use the index and do the Bugnini shuffle.

    ('Bugnini shuffle' associated with a little jazz music/dance has come to be a humorous expression in my schola meaning 'you have the wrong book again, no I don’t know the page number, use the index’)
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Learn your psalm tones. If a chant is too difficult to learn in the time provided, I just chant it to the psalm tone assigned to it. Better than the practice of chanting everything to the same tone throughout the entire mass.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    We use he Rossini psalm tone Propers at the EF for which I regularly sing if we are down on numbers. They are listed on the CMAA website.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    You need the graduale simplex. Do a good search, it's exactly what you need.
  • Ben: reread post #2. ;-)

    I’m looking for propers rather than seasonal antiphons.
    Thanked by 1brentstull
  • Heath
    Posts: 856
    Felipe, do you know of the old Ratisbon Gradual from the mid-19th century? They could use some re-transcribing but they may be just what you're looking for . . .

    http://media.musicasacra.com/publications/pdf/graduale1871.pdf

    (Note: BIG PDF)
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Whoops, mea culpa!
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 712
    It's a project I wouldn't mind pursuing. See the sample attached, then let me know what you need, if you are interested.
  • I was also sent, off-list, a reference to the Labouré propers collection, made available online by CC Watershed.

    The only quibble with all of these is that they are for the EF and so on certain occasions likely won’t “fit” for the OF—e.g., certain Sundays of Eastertide or Lent.

    I’m wondering now how difficult this it would be just to adapt Bartlett’s SEP to Latin texts?

    The use for this, incidentally, is to allow the choir to focus more on polyphony and/or anthems while still giving due place to the texts of the Propers. Or, in parishes that are accustomed to a hymn at the beginning, to allow such not to preclude singing the Introit in Latin.
  • Richard: What you have attached is exactly what I am looking for! :)

    Is there a way that I could help with the work?
    Thanked by 2lagunaredbob Heath
  • Heath
    Posts: 856
    Richard, I would love to see more of this, as well! Working in a college environment, I have about a 30 percent overhaul in my choir every year, so having some simpler Latin propers (especially within the section of Ordinary Time that overlaps with September and October) to use as pedagogical tools would be a God-send.

    I would especially be interested in the seven Eucharistic ad lib antiphons for the beginning of the school year. I may use one of your adaptations one week and then the full proper the following.
    Thanked by 1Felipe Gasper
  • I’m wondering now how difficult this it would be just to adapt Bartlett’s SEP to Latin texts?

    Not particularly (from Nov 2013).
    Thanked by 2Heath Ben Yanke
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    At a Missa Cantata (ie Priest only) I've found that the Gradual and Alleluia Chants tend to hold things up considerably. They make more sense when you have a Missa Solemnis. For this, I usually chant the Gradual to the Psalm Tone and use the Common Tone 8 Alleluia with the verse chanted to tone 8G. This then leaves the Introit, Offertory and Communion. I often substitute an ad libitum for Communion (usually Gustate et videte), but if the Communion is reasonably simple, I try to have it sung in full. I often psalm tone the offertory to free up some space to sing a Motet and then focus on learning the Introit.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Is this at the EF, or OF?
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 328
    The Gradual and Alleluia do NOT hold anything up during the Missa Cantata. They are the chants of the choir and therefore an integral part of the Mass. The fact that the celebrant reads these and then sits as the choir is singing does nothing to detract from this. In singing these chants in full, the choir is discharging its liturgical office in full. The habitual use of psalm tones where the choir is capable of more is pure legalism - ie. the text being supplied in an entirely token way to fulfil the requirements of liturgical law.

    I also don't understand why one would sacrifice the Offertory antiphon to a psalm tone in order to free up time for a motet: better to use the full antiphon which, if not long enough, can have verses added to it out of the Offertoriale. If the choir wants a motet, I think that Isaac or one of his contemporaries set all the the Offertories of the year as four-part motets.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 328
    Felipe, I've forgotten the name of the book (and I suspect it's floating around somewhere out there - maybe CC Watershed) but the Vatican issued something after the reforms so that you could use your old Liber or Graduale for the reformed liturgy. It provides all the page references for where everything should be. I suggest you use that as a starting point for 'porting' EF resources to the OF.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Wasn't that just until they released the revised Graduale Romanum?
  • Palestrina: I’m aware of Isaac communios, but not offertories. Palestrina set all the offertories, but IMO they’re about the least inspired music I’ve seen that bears his name.

    I simply want to incorporate a broader repertoire of music than using the full GR chants all the time (or whatever polyphonic settings of whose texts) would allow. It’s a practice that worked very well when I was at an Anglican Use parish.

    Also, you may be thinking of the “Ordo cantus missae”, which lays out a “plan” for what is to be sung when—analogous to the “Ordo lectionum missae”, which lays out readings without giving the actual texts. The OCM was actually revised in 1986; presumably, a forthcoming edition of the Solesmes Graduale will incorporate its changes (as well as updates to the chant notation itself as per more recent Solesmes publications).
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    I think byrd may have also set many of the propers too.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 328
    What Ben said - it's the interim publication that you want. Either that, lr check it all against the new gradual every week.

    re: Offertories - if you don't like Palestrina, shop around! It's all there somewhere - you just need to put in the hours to find it.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It's more a matter that I've been asked by clergy to do this for various reasons. They include having an appointment soon after mass, wanting a particular motet to be sung at offertory, not wanting to wait so long for the gradual and alleluia... the list goes on. From what I've been told by TLM people here, they often opted to psalm-tone certain propers because of a lack of time to prepare the full gregorian chants to standard.

    Off hand, I cannot remember which document said so, but it has even been suggested by the church herself to sing propers to Psalm Tones if the full chants cannot be mastered.

    On August 2nd we're doing the Feast of St Alphonsus. We're singing Palestrina's "O Bone Jesu" at the offertory and probably the Arcadelt "Ave Maria" after the communion antiphon, reflecting the life and theological writings of the saint. At the moment, "By All Your Saints Still Striving" (AURELIA) is going to be the recessional hymn.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    It's more a matter that I've been asked by clergy to do this for various reasons. They include having an appointment soon after mass, wanting a particular motet to be sung at offertory, not wanting to wait so long for the gradual and alleluia... the list goes on. From what I've been told by TLM people here, they often opted to psalm-tone certain propers because of a lack of time to prepare the full gregorian chants to standard.


    I don't place the blame on you for this, but it really is sad to see this, especially reason
    2. If you have the capability of singing the full gregorian chants, it's unfortunate to see them cut, especially since both of them are an action in and of themselves, unlike some of the other chants, which accompany other actions.

    Psalm tone the tract from lent I? I get it. But regularly cutting the gradual when it's possible to do the full one? That's too bad.

    Perhaps they should consider shortening their homily instead.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Palestrina
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,308
    Ben's referring to the Ordo Cantus Missae, which CCWatershed recently released on-line. The OCM gives instructions on how to find chants for the Ordinary Form in the 1961 Graduale.

    Most of the book consists of a list of abbreviated instructions: for the 38th Sunday in Ordinary Time, the Introit is "Lorem ipsum", on page 324 of the 1961 Graduale; the Alleluia is "Ipsum lorem" on page 279, and so on.

    So if you want to make up a table of the correspondences, that is the book with the raw data.

  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 766
    Off hand, I cannot remember which document said so, but it has even been suggested by the church herself to sing propers to Psalm Tones if the full chants cannot be mastered.

    I think the contrary is true: to sing propers to psalm tones has been discouraged by the Second Vatican Council, although a plain discouragement is only to be found in the preparatory texts and not in the final documents.

    In preparing the text of the constitution Sacrosanctum consilium, the Council Fathers deleted from the fifth concept an earlier explicit reference to the singing of propers to psalm tones as a way to simplify the proper chants for smaller churches, explaining:

    Quibusdam in regionibus iam non parva exstat difficultas Ordinarium Missae cantandi; Proprium vero vel omnino neglegitur, vel recitatur sub organo aut ad modum psalmi. Haec omnia systemata sunt in detrimentum patrimonii gregoriani et naturam sollemnitatis Missae quodammodo simulant. (Declaratio to no. 109 of the fifth concept, August 10, 1961)


    In short: the existing practise (in 1961) in some smaller churches to ignore the propers altogether or sing them to psalm tones harms the Gregorian patrimony and the nature of the solemnity of the Mass.

    So, though the use of psalm tones was at first proposed to facilitate smaller parish churches in singing the propers, this recommendation didn't make the cut in the final text of the constitution, and was removed in favour of the desire to use simpler melodies in order to safeguard the patrimony of Gregorian chant and the solemn nature of the Mass.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 328
    Quite. Psalm tones are a legal accommodation (as, indeed, is recto tono). These texts are meant to be sung in full by the choir, which has a real liturgical office. To reduce them to a psalm tone is to devalue them. I could sort of understand if the congregation was to sing the texts together - but not if it's just the choir.
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    @smvanroode That's interesting that it places psalm toning them in a similar category as simply replacing them. Another reason I love the Chants Abrégés.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,596
    Warning: Chant Rant:

    I wish people would stop thinking of the Gradual/Alleluia as 'Holding things up': they are the liturgical action - the Alleluia (despite what it has become in common OF practice) is not the accompaniment to the Gospel procession - it is merely an historical coincidence that the Gospel procession occurs during the Alleluia. (The Conductus accompanied the Procession.) Why don't we get rid rid of the Readings? -- they 'hold things up', too.

    Better yet, lets just have the priest distribute Communion from Hosts from the tabernacle before hand (he can say a private Mass at 4 am so that no one is inconvenienced by the liturgy), and then just skip to the dismissal, that way people can get back to important things, like golf.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Agreed, Salieri.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    I always found it amusing that when the mass was running a bit over, a now retired priest would say, rather than sing the "Agnus Dei" to save time. The time saved was insignificant. Real time savings could have come from editing down the ill-prepared and rambling sermon. Go figure!
    Thanked by 2Salieri Ben Yanke
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,596
    Yes CW. Since we are not longer singing the Propers or most of the Ordinary, Mass is now only taking 50 minutes instead of 55. Oooh Boooyy--big time savings there. (We actually managed to crunch it down to 45 min last Sunday. I sure hope the collection's gone up!)
  • I’m curious: would those of you who advocate for full Gregorian Propers see any place for, say, Byrd’s “Ave verum” at the Mass?
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    yes, it's a great piece, but it's role would be secondary to the proper it follows.
  • Ben, can you clarify? I’m not asking about its artistic merits. Where would you use it at an OF Mass if we’re going with full Gregorian propers?

    The OF has communion verses; using full Gregorian propers would mean to use those, yes? And would we also use Offertory verses? These effectively preclude any music other than monophonic chant or settings of the same proper texts.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    I would use it after the offertory proper if there were time (which could be possible if incense were used, and even possibly possible without it, if the priest doesn't rush), or at communion after the communion. At my parish, we have time to use verses of the communion as well as a motet, or sometimes two. But even if you don't have time for that, you can still just do the antiphon, the verses are optional.

    Or, you could use a simpler setting from the LCSG, SEP, or even the graduale simplex.
  • The “simpler setting” option is basically what I am looking to do, at least for offertories and possibly communions. I don’t know the LCSG abbreviation, but SEP is in English, and the Mass where the choir sings is principally in Latin.

    The Graduale Simplex seems to me to have something of a frustrated purpose: it has propers for major feasts but then seasonal antiphons for everything else. I am looking for a resource that is specific to each day of the year.

    I wouldn’t even mind a resource like Psallite—a newly-written cycle of Propers—except that musically I think that particular collection would clash with the aesthetic that my parish cultivates.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,308
    Off hand, I cannot remember which document said so, but it has even been suggested by the church herself to sing propers to Psalm Tones if the full chants cannot be mastered.

    The 1958 De musica sacra prescribes this, not as a recommendation, but as a restriction. It permits either the authentic proper, or a psalm tone, or recto tono but no other form of chant. It appears as though the authorities were seeking to promote the use of the authentic Gregorian propers by pushing choirs out of moderately simplified chants such as the Chants abregés. One had to step up to the authentic melodies or settle down to psalm tones. Along the same lines, the 1950s book of "Graduals, Alleluia Verses, and Tracts" from Solesmes consists entirely of psalm-tone settings.