Widor Toccata Question ...
  • lagunaredbob
    Posts: 161
    Dear Folks, as many of you have already been playing the Widor Toccata for some time I am hoping to call on your expertise and knowledge of the performance background of this organ piece, in particular the articulation discussed below.

    I had learned this piece under the guidance that the slurs that occur on the first two notes of each beat in the right hand and noted through measure three, ended where it is then noted "siempre staccato," measure four, and which I have assumed meant the slurs ended in measure four, and thereafter staccato to the end.

    However, a 2005 article in the AGO magazine pointed that that in later copies of Widor's scores, these slurs up through measure three were actually meant to continue to the end ... the theory goes in this article that it would have been very costly to have the entire score re-typeset (engraved) in Widor's time to reflect the slurs throughout, so it was just noted in the first three measures and assumed to continue to the end.

    I am open to your wisdom and knowledge ... if this is a reliable assumption, i.e., slurs to the end ... then I'll need to do a little woodshedding to correct, and perhaps this already a long-held assumption. However, if not, I a very curious to hear your comments and knowledge.

    Thank you.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    Widor doesn't (or shouldn't) care how you choose to perform his work. He was the composer but he holds no rights to performance style. Besides... a general rule is if you are playing in a very live acoustical space staccato throughout would work well. If it is a dead acoustic, more legato would work better. Then again, no two organs are alike, so stops will have a lot to do with it too. This is why trying to 'nail' the correct performance of an organ piece is all relative. From piano to piano, style of performance is much more predictable. Not so with organ. The artist is much more independent to interpretation.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Pick your edition ... none of which seem to be the edition you have been using, bob. I think Francis is right about the interpretation ... use what works best for you. None of the three attached editions is quite the same.
    WidorSymphonie5FMinorOp42No1-Toccata.pdf
    2M
    Widor-Toccata.pdf
    3M
    Toccata-Clarum Decus Jejuni.pdf
    171K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Widor himself said that organists played the toccata too fast as a show piece which was not what he intended. There is a video on YouTube with Widor playing it, but he was up in his 80s at the time. Whether his playing ability had declined a bit by then is something for speculation. As Francis noted, the building can make or break this piece. I consider John Near to be one of the foremost Widor scholars in the world today, so his interpretations are always a good place for me to start, but I don't think there is much by him on YouTube. Suffice it to say that Widor played his works much more slowly than most performers do today.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    I think we would also be absolutely shocked to hear most composers play/conduct their works, including Bach.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I think you should play it however you like it. Widor is infamous for revising...and revising...including articulation. For example, I think the 4th symphony finale has something like 4-5 different endings. Crazy!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    As a composer, everytime I recycled any of my comps, they became something new, and sometimes, a completely different tempo or instrumental treatment changed the character entirely. I wouldn't be too concerned about a 'correct interpretation' of any piece of music, and I have also expressed that opinion on this forum in reference to chant schools of thought.

    Noel, my attempt to promote the thinking of Bach in my own comps led me to create this image.
    goingBaroque.jpg
    208 x 263 - 53K
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    Then again, I kinda like this one too:
    20140512_051406_bachbrew.jpg
    906 x 1235 - 244K
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    Widor is well known for his critique about players playing it too fast. John Near's Widor editions are the most well researched about him and I consider them authoritative (my.02). Two years ago, I heard it played at St. Sulpice by Daniel Roth and it was a comfortable tempo. This past March I heard Olivier Latry play it and it was not a blazing tempo. As for articulation, check Near's edition ( mine is at work).

    BTW, Latry played the whole symphony and it was a snooze fest.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    For what it's worth, I think Diane Bish plays it a tad slow.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    bkenny

    lol. once you get beyond the 'thrill' of hearing Widor for the first time, then there is nothing left except to make it MORE thrilling (and less boring). Faster is the only thing that can help at that point.
  • lagunaredbob
    Posts: 161

    Thank you all so much for the wonderful comments and great advice, I greatly appreciate it ... and especially Charles for the editions to compare ... I would love to see John Near's edition, I'll do a little research and see if I can come up with his contact information, sounds like a great resource to check out as well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    The Organ Historical Society has the Near editions for sale. They are a bit pricey. I noticed the 5th symphony edition runs around $35. Check out their online catalog.
  • The Near edition is published by A-R Editions, and available from any music seller. I personally recommend Cliff Hill Music.

    Here's the link to the Widor page at A-R:
    http://www.areditions.com/rr/rrn/n011_020.html
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I once heard Carlo Curley play it as an "encore" on a recital. I was young and inexperienced as an organist, but I had begun learning the piece and new it well enough to recognize wrong notes, etc.

    Curley's performance was rushed, uneven and full of sloppy technique and note mistakes. I asked myself why a famous organist would risk playing such a well-known piece so badly.

    The moral of the story is that with pieces like this one (well-known to the point of being hackneyed and bordering on camp) one is well-advised to take a very careful and circumspect approach to learning it and playing it very well.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    ...another approach is not to bother playing it at all because there is so much more good material.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Given its length, along with most Widor pieces, there are probably only a few occasions that it could be played. Even for Christmas Midnight Mass and Easter Vigil postludes, it is still too long for my church of non-St. Sulpice proportions. When I have played it, the church was nearly empty by the end of it. A few individual who like the piece did stay to hear it all. It is mostly a wedding recessional in my parish.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    If one is looking for Widor of a more "liturgical" side, take a look at the ninth and tenth symphonies. No. 9 is based on the Christmas "Puer Natus" and no. 10 is based on "haec dies" (the gradual for Easter day). Late in his life, Widor saw the shift toward the Gregorian renaissance going on in Paris and the rest of France and responded with these two pieces. I personally love no. 10 and the last movement of no.9 is a great gem. Widor had great influence on many musicians in this time period and also held great influence on many musical matters. Cavaille-Coll held him in great esteem. I do not share Francis' disdain, but I do think it is important to see him in his context. As with many composers, there is more than the "one" piece. Tournemire's Victimae Paschali being another example of everyone knowing only that piece. John Near's book "Beyond the Toccata" situates Widor in a rich and fascinating period of French music. Many of us who have connections with students of Marcel Dupre can claim a lineage to Widor as Widor was one of Dupre's teachers.

    Apologies for rambling, but Widor deserves his due. An important figure in the annals of organ history.

    Kevin, the poor Francophile.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I don't agree with Francis, either, but I am sure there is no surprise in that. LOL. I have a high opinion of Widor and believe him to be one of the giants in organ music. He was bigger than life in his own day and his works are hard as the devil to play. He must have been a formidable organist. I can't explain why, but I have a fondness for his 8th symphony, taking nothing away from the 9th and 10th.

    Charles, also a poor Francophile.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • I think I would take the Widor Toccata as a postlude any day instead of the next rendition of Lord I Lift Your Name On High
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Ben CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Amen to that!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,080
    Why choose? You can go all Ivesian and do a mash-up of the Toccata and Lord I Lift Your Name on High....
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Many of us who have connections with students of Marcel Dupre can claim a lineage to Widor as Widor was one of Dupre's teachers.


    Kevin's comment reminds me of RJStove's engaging and brilliant essay on Marcel Dupre, "When Postwar France Came to Love Bach," just published in Catholic World Report.

    He traces the line of succession of the master organists in the French organ school and describes the influence of Bach on Dupre. Dupre evidently considered it his life's mission to cultivate a greater appreciation for Bach among Catholics.

    (I was happy to see RJ thoroughly dismiss the wearisome Catholic prejudice against Protestant composers like Bach which still lurks in some corners of the Catholic music world.)
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    Also.if you have not read Stephen Schloesser's wonderful "Jazz Age Catholicism", it is a must read. It helps to understand post-WW1 Catholicism and also unlocks in my mind, one of the great liturgical organ time-periods (between 1920 to ~1950). It is the age of Tournemire, Langlais and Durufle and the great Olivier Messiaen, who used the chant as the basis for their compositions. And Widor's ghost looms over all of them.

    I just wish his book were a little cheaper.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I can handle Bach, just not some of the wretched reproduction instruments he gets played on. Given the sounds of the instruments he actually consulted on, many supposed new "authentic" instruments miss the mark badly. I don't think Bach would have liked them, either.

    R.J. Stove is the greatest. He has a Raison piece on YouTube I listened to repeatedly before playing it in concert.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Why choose? You can go all Ivesian and do a mash-up of the Toccata and Lord I Lift Your Name on High....


    Well, if it is going to sound like hell anyway, I guess why not? ;-)
    Thanked by 2Liam Gavin
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    R.J. Stove is the greatest. He has a Raison piece on YouTube I listened to repeatedly before playing it in concert
    .

    A nice fellow to boot.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Thanks, Kevin. I used to really hate Widor, but have changed a lot as I grow older. (My brother, also an organist, is constantly making fun of me over this.) Now, if we could get rid of all the repeats, da capos, etc. :)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Speaking of Widor & Bach ... Albert Schweitzer also studied with Widor, and the two collaborated on an annotated edition of J. S. Bach's organ works published in 1912-14. Widor, whose own master Lemmens was an important Bach exponent, encouraged Schweitzer's theological exploration of Bach's music. It was Schweitzer who knew German chorales so well that he was able to enlighten Widor on the presence of chorale fragments in many of Bach's organ works.
    Thanked by 1BruceL