Skipping the Pen. Rite&kyrie: legal,legit,licit?
  • Many priests here at the home parish skip these parts of the introductory rites. Is that cool for them or can we request to have it back?? Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I believe that all hints of repentance were eliminated in the rubrics for the Self Sufficient Rite.

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  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,827
    from the GIRM

    The Penitential Act 
     
    51.    After this, the Priest calls upon the whole community to take part in the Penitential Act, which, after a brief pause for silence, it does by means of a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the Priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance. From time to time on Sundays, especially in Easter Time, instead of the customary Penitential Act, the blessing and sprinkling of water may take place as a reminder of Baptism.55 
     
    The Kyrie Eleison 
     
    52.    After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir 
    or cantor taking part in it.  Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various  languages,  as  well  as  of  the  artistry  of  the  music  or  of  other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a 
    “trope” precedes each acclamation. 


    So it is always supposed to be a part of the liturgy, but 'from time to time' the blessing and sprinkling can take place instead. So it would seem that if neither is present, something is not right.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,902
    Yah, well. Here in SE Wisconsin, a 'conservative' OF parish uses the sprinkling rite while the Gloria is sung, and (needless to say) eliminates the mandatory Kyrie at the end of the sprinkling.

    Variation 2,453,998 on the Roman Rite. And they wonder why the laity are not all that interested in obeying THEIR authority.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    If I am not mistaken, the Kyrie is not allowed when the sprinkling rite is used - at least according to the appropriate USCCB committee. That was posted on this forum recently on another thread.

    One of our priests is using sprinkling every Sunday through Pentecost, and I begin the Gloria immediately after the prayer following sprinkling. The other priest has too many mobility problems and doesn't sprinkle, so the Kyrie follows the Confiteor.
  • G
    Posts: 1,389
    SE Wisconsin, a 'conservative' OF parish uses the sprinkling rite while the Gloria is sung, and (needless to say) eliminates the mandatory Kyrie at the end of the sprinkling.
    That was SOP in parishes in Indiana, as well.
    I'm fairly sure it was in specifically in directions from the diocesan OofW we were given when the Bishop would be celebrating; we were told, (our church was a large building, long aisles) to loop back and repeat part of the Gloria as needed.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • the mandatory Kyrie at the end of the sprinkling.
    No. The Kyrie is omitted in this case, as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship stated in one of their recent newsletters:
    "When the Rite for the Blessing and Sprinkling of Water is used in place of the Penitential Act at the beginning of Mass, the Kyrie is always omitted."
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 931
    I'm fairly sure it was in specifically in directions from the diocesan OofW we were given when the Bishop would be celebrating; we were told, (our church was a large building, long aisles) to loop back and repeat part of the Gloria as needed.


    I won't question your experience of what the OoW said in the past, but I assure you that is not the direction they are giving now.
  • G
    Posts: 1,389
    I believe you are Indy?
    How much does the OofW of the metropolitan oversee those of smaller sees?
    I should have said, "SOME parishes in Indiana."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    It is indeed correct to skip directly to the gloria when the sprinkling rite is done. The unfortunate thing is that if you want to have consistency throughout the year, you either never do the penitential act, or never do the sprinkling rite.

    (another reason the EF is easier, no optionitis)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,827
    We always did the sprinkling rite during the Easter Season.

    PS... how long has the sprinkling rite been done in the liturgy, and then done in this fashion (eliminating the penetential rite)?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    you either never do the penitential act, or never do the sprinkling rite.

    (another reason the EF is easier, no optionitis)


    I don't see the problem. We use the sprinkling rite when appropriate, such as for Easter, and the penitential when it is appropriate. I am not having a problem with either.
  • All the masses I attended this weekend did the correct thing, sprinkling during some with the Gloria, and others non-sprinkled that included the Pen. Rite and Kyrie.

    I think at one point there was special music during sprinkling- in the past we've done Come To the River, or Asparagus May, sometimes just Gloria.

    I think there is some reeducation being done on keeping right order of mass as prescribed, but perhaps some priests take things as free license to make a change at will during the ordinary weeks. Reminiscent of the whole Vat. II reaction-ism that takes some blame for the erosion of sacred music. We heard a nice eulogy of St.John23 this morning, bless his heart, from a reverend father that was adamant that too much attention had been paid to St.JP2 in the local archdiocesan tabloid, at the expense of the memory of "Good Pope John".
  • Ben managed not to point out WHY the EF situation is easier.


    For the benefit of any who don't know:

    In the Missal of (soon to be) Blessed Paul VI, the penitential rite is followed by the Kyrie, and both can be replaced by the Sprinkling Rite, and so straight into the Gloria in Excelsis Deo.

    In the Missal of Saint John XXIII, there are specific Sundays when what are called the "Prayers at the Foot of the Altar" are not said, but there is a clear reason why, and in any event the Sprinkling Rite (accompanied by the Asperges Me or the Vidi Aquam, depending on the time of year) precedes the Sign of the Cross by which the Mass begins. We can tell this because the priest (and deacon and sub-deacon) process in wearing copes, not chasubles, and then change between the Sprinkling Rite and the Mass. Unless the Kyrie is specifically excluded by the rubrics, it occurs, as does the Confiteor.

    Cheers,

    Chris
    Thanked by 1Continuousbass
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,308
    The Penitential Rite takes little time. It can be said in a simple, minimal way in about 12 seconds. In a fast-talking city, make that 10 seconds.

    Continuousbass, do they leave it out even in Lent and Advent? That would be strange: skipping directly from "The Lord be with you/And with your spirit" to "Let us pray" and the Collect.

    And is the pastor one of those who omit it or those who say it?

    Either way, thank the priests who do include the 'Lord, have mercy', so they'll be aware of the omission by others.
    Thanked by 1Continuousbass
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    We sing, "I saw water flowing..." from the ICEL chants during sprinkling.
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • do they leave it out even in Lent and Advent? That would be strange: skipping directly from "The Lord be with you/And with your spirit" to "Let us pray" and the Collect.
    Yes, they do, and it's that abrupt. I take it as a drive-thru mentality, as our former pastor called it specifically. Drive-thru church, best way to start your week. Our new pastor is very careful liturgically, but can eschew the Kyrie at times. Some celebrants are confused by the rubrics there regarding the form of Pen. Rite that includes the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy. In their confusion they take great offense when someone even mentions the Kyrie. I suspect there is some subcommittee promoting drive-thru liturgy. When I was a kid, I thought it was so people could go home and catch the game. A bit older now, and realize that we're called liturgists rather than musicians in part because we tend to scrutinize complex road maps (flashbacks of waltz gigs)...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,308
    For Latin/Greek-phobic priests, you'd have to refer to it as the "Lord, have mercy". :-)
    Thanked by 1Continuousbass
  • Either way, thank the priests who do include the 'Lord, have mercy', so they'll be aware of the omission by others.

    That is a splendid idea. I have to give commendations to the deacons who chant Kyrie in spite of the celebrant. They really let us know they are pulling for sacred music in spite of the drive-thru mentality. Does it all really come down to making sure the parking lot is sufficiently empty in time for the next crowd???
  • For Latin/Greek-phobic priests, you'd have to refer to it as the "Lord, have mercy". :-)
    Thanks for the reminder, I always say Kyrie due to my lingering case of musicmajoritis.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 931
    I believe you are Indy?
    How much does the OofW of the metropolitan oversee those of smaller sees?


    Ah, you're in one of the other dioceses in IN. Indianapolis doesn't oversee the smaller sees in that way. The power of the metropolitan over his "suffragan dioceses" is not very strong. It's mainly administrative in matters of canonical appeal or vacancies in the other seats of the see.
    Thanked by 2BruceL Liam
  • Andrew Malton
    Posts: 835
    I am trying to discern if there are dioceses where the Sprinkling Rite is or was officially allowed, encouraged, mandated, to be carried out while the Gloria is being sung. Can't tell, from the above.

    When we do it, or when we "process in to the Gloria" after the initial (spoken) rites of Baptism-within-Mass, it always seems weird to me: treating the Gloria as a processional or introit, basically.
  • I am trying to discern if there are dioceses where the Sprinkling Rite is or was officially allowed, encouraged, mandated, to be carried out while the Gloria is being sung. Can't tell, from the above.

    We had an archdiocesan priest sprinkle to the Gloria, and he even announced publicly that we would be singing Gloria during his sprinkling. He almost made it back to the altar by the time we were finished, and the director tinkled a quiet solo verse on the keys until he was back in position. I guess we're getting quicker or he's getting slower, LOL.

    I don't recall any Gloria processionals around these parts, just sprinkling, and we haven't had incense in fifteen years, although downtown they have it once a year.
  • G
    Posts: 1,389
    Ah, you're in one of the other dioceses in IN.

    I was.
    The power of the metropolitan over his "suffragan dioceses" is not very strong. It's mainly administrative in matters of canonical appeal or vacancies in the other seats of the see.
    That's what I thought, also making sure the smaller dioceses are on the same page regarding Ascension Sunday/Thursday, whether or not frogs' legs are meat, that sort of thing... :oD

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka BruceL
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Yeah, in modern days, the Metropolitans authority over suffragan dioceses really amounts to the fact that the Metropolitan can licitly go into any suffragan diocese and say mass without any permission needed. He is also consulted when there is to be a vacancy, but his voice is one of many consulted.

    But that's about it; as far as governance of the diocese, etc. my understanding is that those bishops could basically tell the Archbishop where to go, and since they are sovereign in their own diocese, he'd have no direct recourse - of course the ability of him to "play politics" in a way that furthers his goals brings all sorts of possibilities. But direct authority? No so much.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 360
    This thread brings to mind a few issues I have with the way some celebrate mass here in NY. I love the Asperges and the Kyrie and the use of incense during mass, yet I notice an effort to make the mass more pedestrian and less sacred. Many priests here only sprinkle the PIPs rarely and incense seems to require a papal bull.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I love the Asperges and the Kyrie and the use of incense during mass, yet I notice an effort to make the mass more pedestrian and less sacred. Many priests here only sprinkle the PIPs rarely and incense seems to require a papal bull.


    I think that's a stretch. I know what you mean about the lack of sprinkling and incense most places, but I don't think it stems from a systematic desire on the part of priests to make the mass less sacred.

    I think it stems from parishioner complaints. Most people HATE, HATE, HATE incense and claim to have allergies to it. And people usually aren't fond of sprinkling, which adds time to the mass either.

    Most priests will choose their battles. If they know that they have to rile people up with the bishop's annual appeal, or by teaching authentic Church teaching, they will usually be willing to compromise on incense and sprinkling, since, although nice, those things are not REQUIRED.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    Whining Latin wussies! Those incense haters should go to a Byzantine liturgy. We are bathed in incense and love it.
    Thanked by 3kenstb francis Gavin
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Oh, I know. And the best is when the censor comes out unlit and they are coughing.
    But it is what it is, right?
  • Andrew Malton
    Posts: 835
    I think there are a lot of people who instinctively cough when they smell incense. Not when they smell tobacco, or frying bacon, or car exhaust, or roofing tar, but just a hint of incense and grhm, hhhe, chah, ke-e-keh.

    It's very strange, it is.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 360
    I STILL like incense.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Oh me too. We use it EVERY WEEK at our choir mass. It's just LOVELY.
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    Whenever I have questions like these, I find it useful to look at the Extraordinary Form.

    The EF Sung Mass sets up the following scenario:

    The penitential act for the faithful takes the form of a sprinkling rite. Then comes the Inroit. The faithful do not actively "participate" in the penitential act of the priest (i.e. Confiteor). Instead, during this time the faithful are to meditate on the sung Introit. The EF then has the Kyrie follow the Introit. It is often chanted while the altar is still being incensed.

    So, what does the EF teach us? Whenever the Introductory Rites begin before the Introit, the Kyrie piggybacks onto the Entrance Chant. I'll repeat it. Whenever Mass "begins" before the Introit, the Kyrie immediately follows the Introit. Chew on it and realize that that is the case for every EF Mass, Low or High. The priest, himself, always "starts" Mass before even reading the Introit.

    It is my opinion that the rubrics of the OF assume this. Take for example, Funerals. When the body is received at the Funeral Mass (Introductory Rites taking place before the Introit!), the Celebrant is instructed to start the collect after reverencing the altar. Makes sense! To those in the nave, the rubric is almost identical to the EF, assuming the Kyrie was chanted at the end of or "as part of" the Procession/Entrance/Introit (however you want to sell it to those who could care less).

    When the body has been received at the Vigil, the Introductory Rites of the next day would now be those of a normal Mass. This requires the Kyrie to be in its new place, after the Greeting and Penitential Act (if not in the Penitential Act).

    Consider the rubrics of the Nuptial Mass: "At the appointed time, the Priest, vested for Mass, goes with the ministers to the door of the church or, if more suitable, to the altar. There he meets the bride and bridegroom in a friendly manner, showing that the Church shares their joy." Something out of the norm happens before the Introit is begun. Is it no wonder then that the Penitential Act is omitted and that the Kyrie is not even mentioned in the Missal? "The penitential act is omitted. The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the Highest) is said."

    Finally consider the Missal rubrics for Palm Sunday, another day in the Ordinary Form when Mass begins before the Introit. The First Option:

    11. When the priest arrives at the altar [after having read the Gospel and blessed the palms], he venerates it and, if appropriate, incenses it. Then he goes to the chair, where he puts aside the cope, if he has worn one, and puts on the chasuble. Omitting the other introductory rites of the Mass [Makes sense since we started Mass before the Entrance Chant] and, if appropriate, the Kyrie (Lord, have mercy), he says the collect of the Mass, and then continues the Mass in the usual way.

    "If appropriate?" What does that mean? I suggest it means that if the Kyrie was already chanted at the end of the Antiphon, then omit it. If it has not been chanted, do not omit it. The presumption here is that the Kyrie was likely chanted in keeping with tradition.

    Look at paragraph 17 for Palm Sunday's Third Option - Simple Entrance: "While the priest proceeds to the altar, the entrance antiphon with its psalm (no. 18) or another chant on the same theme is sung. Arriving at the altar, the priest venerates it and goes to the chair. After the Sign of the cross, he greets the people and continues the Mass in the usual way."

    Notice how there is no option to "omit" the Kyrie under this form. Why? I maintain that it is because in this case there is no option to piggyback to the end of the Entrance Antiphon. Instead the Introductory Rites start normally and force the Kyrie into its new spot.

    Another example can be found in the rubrics for the Vigil of Pentecost. There too, the Kyrie is to be omitted, only "if appropriate." Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the Extended Form are quite useful.


    P.S. The Easter Vigil has no Entrance Antiphon. It is the conclusion of that which began at the Mass of the Lord's Supper. Therefore it makes sense that there would be no Kyrie.


    P.S. #2 : My guess is that in keeping with Tradition, if the Sprinkling rite is to be used, the Kyrie should follow the Introit, even if the Sprinkling Rite does not precede the Entrance Chant. And since in the Ordinary Form you can sing just about anything for the Entrance Hymn, we can always add a Kyrie, "if appropriate."
    Thanked by 1Continuousbass
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    The Easter Vigil has no Entrance Antiphon. It is the conclusion of that which began at the Mass of the Lord's Supper. Therefore it makes sense that there would be no Kyrie.


    I have always been under the impression that the triduum is one liturgy, so to speak, since the only introductory rite is holy thurday, and the only blessing/dismissal is on saturday.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    My guess is that in keeping with Tradition, if the Sprinkling rite is to be used, the Kyrie should follow the Introit, even if the Sprinkling Rite does not precede the Entrance Chant. And since in the Ordinary Form you can sing just about anything for the Entrance Hymn, we can always add a Kyrie, "if appropriate."


    Also, nice logic there. You have me chuckling.
  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    Ben, it really is simple, is it not? We *always* have the Kyrie. The default position of the Kyrie is right after the Introit, that is, unless the Missal directs otherwise (which in the OF can be the vast majority of the time).
  • kenstb
    Posts: 360
    Umm...actually..Ben is right. Also, if the Litaniae Sanctorum is sung, it begins with the words "Kyrie Eleison".
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Ben, it really is simple, is it not? We *always* have the Kyrie. The default position of the Kyrie is right after the Introit, that is, unless the Missal directs otherwise (which in the OF can be the vast majority of the time).


    I certainly wouldn't do it, but it certainly was amusing.
  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    Ben and I don't disagree. The Vigil is the conclusion of what begins at the Mass of the Lord's Supper (i.e. Holy Thursday). It is all one liturgy that begins on Holy Thursday and ends on the Vigil.

    But great point regarding the Litany of the Saints. So we get two (2) Kyries in that one liturgy! Freebie!
  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    I ran this by a priest friend and his eyes get wide; then he said, "A Kyrie while I incense the altar at funerals would be great!"

    Which goes back to the most popular answer, "When the priest says so."
  • kenstb
    Posts: 360
    If we take Ben literally, you get two Gloria's also. I'm not sure Ben meant to be taken literally though...
  • supernoxic
    Posts: 15
    It's interesting to note that at this year's Easter Sunday mass in St. Peter's Square (and since 2012), the Kyrie was sung following the Sprinkling Rite and the Vidi aquam.
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  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,827
    supernoxic:

    uh oh... new president?
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    What did they do other times? If I recall, Easter Sunday has slightly different rubrics
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,902
    51. Postea sacerdos invitat ad actum paenitentialem, qui, post brevem pausam silentii, a tota communitate formula confessionis generalis perficitur, et sacerdotis absolutione concluditur, quae tamen efficacia sacramenti Paenitentiae caret. Die dominica, praesertim tempore paschali, loco consueti actus paenitentialis, quandoque fieri potest benedictio et aspersio aquae in memoriam baptismi.(56) Kyrie, eleison

    Well, USCCB certainly reads the above differently. eh?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,902
    The penitential act for the faithful takes the form of a sprinkling rite. Then comes the Inroit. The faithful do not actively "participate" in the penitential act of the priest (i.e. Confiteor). Instead, during this time the faithful are to meditate on the sung Introit. The EF then has the Kyrie follow the Introit. It is often chanted while the altar is still being incensed.


    That is certainly a unique take on the Ordo Missae Antiquae.

    In fact: 1) the "people", represented by the altar servers, DO recite the Confiteor (by deputation); and 2) it matters not whether there is or is not a 'sprinkling;' the Kyrie is always sung immediately after the Introit in the EF.

    You can look it up.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,902
    mass in St. Peter's Square (and since 2012), the Kyrie was sung following the Sprinkling Rite and the Vidi aquam.


    That's because USCCB doesn't govern Vatican liturgy. (See above)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,510
    That's because USCCB doesn't govern Vatican liturgy


    And never will!
  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    In fact: 1) the "people", represented by the altar servers, DO recite the Confiteor (by deputation); and 2) it matters not whether there is or is not a 'sprinkling;' the Kyrie is always sung immediately after the Introit in the EF.


    Dad29, this is why I put the word participate in quotes. Sprinkling *option* takes place only before High Mass only, so we agree that High or Low the Kyrie always follows the Introit.

  • cdruiz
    Posts: 26
    It's interesting to note that at this year's Easter Sunday mass in St. Peter's Square (and since 2012), the Kyrie was sung following the Sprinkling Rite and the Vidi aquam.


    You can sing just about anything during the Sprinkling Rite. Why not top it off with a Kyrie?