No, they didn't. The Roman liturgy had changed into its own identity by then. Had the Russians seen it in the height of the 4th century, they wouldn't have seen as much difference between the Roman and Greek practices. Those liturgies were more alike in the early imperial times - or at least when the west was more influenced by the imperial court.

Hard stones. There's that Roman love for suffering again. LOL.

I think every Sunday should be heaven on earth. When you walk through the temple doors, you are entering heaven and the outside world should stay outside. Sad to say, that is not so often the case in most places.

Consolations of that sort are primarily for those new to the faith, and meant to be an exceptional experience.

I'm not being argumentative, but why, meant by whom?

The road to spiritual maturity is paved with the hard stones of detachment from reliance on consolations.

As a spiritually immature person, I'll take your word for it that it is, but must it be?
Is one required to seek out the white martyrdom of shoddily conducted, catch-penny liturgies?
Mind you, I can find heaven on earth in a very quiet "low" Mass in a black box, so I hope I don't "rely on consolations," but is that to say consolation shouldn't be universally available?
And if we are capable, shouldn't we provide consolations that can provoke that reaction? I don't suppose we can be sure every person in the congregation will be so spiritually mature as to have no need...

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

I think the liturgy in a modern catacomb would be heaven on earth at this point compared to most of the tortures we have to endure every Sunday this day and age.

Not in agreement with Liam, that these consolations are meant chiefly for those new to the Holy Faith. If that is the case, I would rather be new to the Holy Faith every day. No, I will bite: in a very real sense, we should all be new to Holy Faith every day, since none of us ever stops growing spiritually. In biology, we living creatures are doing one (or both) of the following: we are either growing or dying. We never are still. In like fashion, we humans are either spiritually growing or dying. It is not really possible for us to stand still while we are still on Earth. On that note, we need precisely the consolation mentioned above regarding the emissary of the prince in order to remind of us of Whom (capital letter is deliberate) we serve....no, of Whom we long to see when we finish the earthly voyage.

Each of us should remember from time to time Who (as above, capital letter is deliberate) it is we are meeting when we go to Mass: nothing else than His Majesty our God, in the Holy Eucharist. When we forget this, then our attitude leads precisely to the liturgical garble we sometimes get. It is just like preparing a meal for the President of the United States or the Prince of Monaco: we would be very attentive in thse matters. If so for them, who like you and I are mere mortals, what more for the King of the universe? Are the details not important for Him as well?

("Holy things for the Holy...."-from the Maronite Catholic Qurbono)

Matthew,

Nobody takes seriously the notion that going to Mass with Glory and Praise is worse than martyrdom. However, we are simply emphasizing that we should strive for the best we can offer to His Majesty.

(to be continued)

Nobody takes seriously the notion that going to Mass with Glory and Praise is worse than martyrdom.

Going to Mass with G&P IS a form of martyrdom. It is the re-crucifixion of Christ in the image of His Church, and we all suffer the agony.

But is it a worse martyrdom, Francis, than being thrown to the lions?

One person being thrown to the lions would be terrible and painful. One person would suffer a moment.

But this is the great apostasy foretold to us. The entire Church is suffering an agony that continues on for days, weeks, months, years and now decades.

You tell me which is the worse in terms of overall tragedy.

We can make our case for reverent liturgy without overstating it. I hope you will find in the past posting that I have made a good argument for good liturgy without resorting to extremes.

Extremes? I think we are living in the most extreme period in the history of the Church. We are living in the 'eclipse' of the Faith. When Our Lady foretold this to us, she meant that we would be living without the light of Faith that the Church has always provided. She said that during this time "we would have nothing but the rosary and the Sign of Her Son."

Yea, I would say that is extreme. Overstating it? No. The world is on the brink of a great and difficult time and we are about to see it unfold.

As long as the liturgy is not outright ridiculous (clown Masses and the like), it is bearable.

It may be bearable for you, but I don't think God is going to bear it much longer. He will not be mocked and allow what is holy to suffer desecration without consequence.

should we not be able to advance the fine art of liturgy during peaceful times for the greater glory of God?

Liturgy is more the worship of God in spirit and in truth and not so much a 'fine art'. We are not in peaceful times. We are in the time of 'false peace', also foretold by Our Lady. We are in utter chaos and breathing the air of "diabolical confusion", and those that profess and carry THE truth live within the "catacomb", under the great patrocinium of the BVM.

When I was younger, Francis, I remember singing "Glory and Praise to our God."

As far as I remember, there was nothing heretical to it. Now, if I was in charge of music planning, would I choose it?

No.

But if the choice was between no Eucharist at all and Mass with "Glory and Praise", God knows which I would choose. Many Catholics, namely those in the former Soviet bloc countries who are influenced by the Russian Orthodox patriarchate, do not have the real freedom to attend a Catholic Eucharist. For them, persecution is very much real.

I am quite aware of the spiritual battle which is being waged in the secular sphere. But as far as I know, Obama is not dictating to Catholics what music to use at divine worship-unlike the ancient Romans, who dictated to the Christians under the pain of a tortuous death not to worship God at all.

Nevertheless, I still remain committed to the ideal that the Catholic Eucharist should have an "otherworldly" feel to it. I bring up the ancient martyrs, though, to remind everyone that Mass did not always have Palestrina and the like. I am assuming that the ancient Christians had to say Mass very quietly.


With that in mind, I will continue my remarks on "otherworldliness" tomorrow, and as it is nearly 11 o'clock here in most of Texas (U.S.), I bid you all a "peaceful night and a perfect end. Our help is in the Name of the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth" (Order of Compline).

Attending a liturgy presented in a manner less than dignified is related to martyrdom...

Poppycock, Richard, and an injury to the ranks of martyrs who gave ultimate and final witness. I cannot imagine St. M. Kolbe to the Blackfriars to those martyrd in far Asia over centuries caring a whit for the relative dignity of one music over another at service. As has been mentioned, the majesty and mystery of the Mass/Divine Liturgy exists extemporally and beyond our sensory capabililties and even the dimensions to which we are bound.
Let us keep our eye on the ball, not the circle, and remember it is to Christ to whom we are called and answer, not the artifice of suitability according to.....
I trust that no one need feel compelled to start quoting either scripture or legislative passages to bolster their contradictions, I'm well aware. An icon's efficacy will always remain in the sensibilities of the believer. Appeals to vainglory notwithstanding.

How long will we accept mediocrity or worse?

****Geico Commercial Spoiler Alert****

WELL ...Did you know that really good Sacred Choral Music came from the 60's, 70's,80's, & 90's.....??


...... 1760's , 1770's, 1780's,1790's ???

http://www.theonion.com/articles/if-i-could-live-in-any-decade-it-would-definitely,32082/

...... 1760's , 1770's, 1780's,1790's

... 1490's, 1500's, 1510's, 1520's, 1530's, 1550's, 1560's, 1570's, 1580's, 1590's, 1600's, 1610's, 1620's, 1630's ...

Fixed, thanks to the 30 persons listed below (as well as others):

Ockeghem: 1410/1425 – 1497
Obrecht: 1457/8 – 1505
Josquin: c. 1450/1455 – 1521
Senfl: 1486 – 1542
Taverner: 1490 – 1545
Morales: c. 1500 – 1553
Clemens non Papa: c. 1510/1515 – 1555 or 1556
Crecquillon: 1505 – 1557
Sheppard: c: 1515 – 1558
Gombert: c. 1495 – 1560
Willaert: c. 1490 – 1562
Tye: 1505 – 1572
Parsons: c. 1530 – 1572/1572
Farrant: 1530 – 1580
Tallis: c. 1505 – 1585
A. Gabrieli: 1532 – 1586
Handl (Gallus): 1550 – 1591
Palestrina: 1524 – 1594
di Lasso: 1532 – 1594
Guerrero: 1528 – 1599
Croce: 1557 – 1609
Victoria: 1548 – 1611
G. Gabrieli: 1553 – 1612
Hassler: c. 1564 – 1612
Anerio: 1516 – 1614
Sweelinck: 1562 – 1621
M. Praetorius: 1571 – 1621
Byrd: ca 1540 – 1623
Gibbons: 1583 – 1625
Monteverdi: 1567 – 1643

CHG: How can you forget Gesualdo?!?

CHG: How can you forget Gesualdo?!?

My apologies ... being in a hurry is no excuse. Gesualdo wrote some beautiful music.

My point above was to highlight the original meaning of martyrdom: that is, not suffering and death, but witness; and that we all have opportunities to do that.

Agreed. And I have an equally hard time putting myself among white martyrs like John the Evangelist just because I was present during a happy-clappy song that time.

White martyrdom has nothing to do with music.

Only I am given license to melodramatics, Geri.

Playing Schumann's Doppleganger as you speak!

All it would take is a priest who wants it.

And to get to Alpha Centauri, all you have to do is jump very high.

Pardon the quip because I agree 100% with you that a strong priest is all it would take. However, it would have to be a strong priest with his liturgical head screwed on right and the sad fact is most are formed in seminary in consensus and status quo of the Empire of Banality. The priest we are looking for is a niche of a niche, and when they first come out of seminary, they are going to probably be under pastors as the bishop bounces them around from parish to parish, and by the time he becomes a pastor himself, he's simply too worn out to fight for liturgy.

There are signs of hope. We have a young priest newly ordained celebrating the EF. He kept his mouth shut about his interest in the EF in the seminary. When they realized he was celebrating the EF, some squawked in disapproval, but there was nothing they could do about it. I asked a current seminarian who is assisting at the EF if he keeps it quiet and he said no, he is up front about it, and not only has no one given him grief, our newly appointed bishop encouraged him and told him we needed more priests to learn the EF.

I think that most, in fact, nearly all, Catholics who still come to Mass come for the right reason, to find Jesus. I do believe this is true in our parish. But they have never been exposed to sacred music. If given the exposure, I do think most would realize the beauty and purpose of sacred music, and say, "Why haven't we had this before?" But it has to be all sacred, not just a smattering of sacred mixed in with the Glory & Praise.

Kathy

But it has to be all sacred, not just a smattering of sacred mixed in with the Glory & Praise.
TM24, how would you classify John Foley's MAY WE PRAISE YOU, SATB, within your two categories?

At one past parish I was at, a woman emphatically and scornfully said to me "They don't care WHY you are changing everything; they don't want it to change and this place doesn't feel like 'home' anymore. They couldn't care less WHY it is happening, just that it IS."

Precisely. Explaining it means that you are justifying it and the response from many will be in opposition.

Every so often the Amish Bishop reads the Ordnung at the end of service. No discussion, no explanation of any changes. If you are not happy, pick up your black hat and leave.

I was also accused of arrogance for always trying to teach people, and acting like I know better than them.

Damn, they want Father to hire people who are and appear stupider than themselves?

Now THAT's LEADERSHIP!

Yep, this was a very "special" place. Me saying that I might know more about music and liturgy than them, you know, because of my formal study, workshops, etc. was arrogant.

I'm not sure if they would have respected me more if I had the letters M.M. or M.A. or PhD after my name; maybe they perceived me as lacking in FORMAL liturgical education. Who knows.

Still - how many of them had even so much as been to an NPM convention (I'm deliberately setting the "education" bar really really low here)? Probably not many. But they knew it all!

not sure if they would have respected me more if I had the letters M.M. or M.A. or PhD after my name

Are you a middle-aged guy?

(Save the Liturgy, save the World)

The problem is that it doesn't matter which method of change you use, people will complain.

Go slowly you say? We've been doing that...for the past ten years. With three different priests. People complain and every time a new priest comes in they start beating the drum of "we want our Praise and Worship music back".

The priests in question have tried the "because I said so" method, and the "here's why we are doing it" method. Didn't matter. People still got angry.

At least if you explain why, and just do what needs to be done to restore the liturgy, those who really are concerned about growing in holiness will have that opportunity. Those who just want to be mad about it will be no matter what method you choose.

This has been my experience...as usual...YMMV.