In some ways, most every Sunday Mass across the country is a "particular" liturgy in the sense that it is designed to appeal to a middle-American, white-bread, pop-tarts and twinkies, value meal, pre-fab, loose credit, wash-n-wear sensibility. If I were an "ethnic" I would feel alienated too! so while the answer isn't ever more ethno-centric experiences, the best way to head this stuff off is to universalize the experience for everyone.

I don't know how helpful this is, and I can only speak for myself, but as one of Filipino ancestry (and isn't particularly ashamed of it), I steer clear of the ethnic Filipino liturgies as much as possible.

And as much as possible, I steer clear of the "middle-American, white-bread, pop-tarts and twinkies, value meal, pre-fab, loose credit*, wash-n-wear sensibility" liturgies, too.

*loose credit indeed!

I am from Korea. When I came to America. I came to live in this country. I try hard to learn English and try to contribute to this society. Whenever there are any talks or events where I can share my beautiful culture, I do. (there are many things Americans like about our culture, such as reverence :) But I don't insist that I have to be treated differently from other Americans. The language is very important to unite this country as one. The language is very important to unite the Catholics. If you start to pick certain ethnic groups, how about other ethnic groups who are not selected? How many different languges we should have in the Liturgy in this country. Almost limitless. This will divide the country and the Church more than uniting people. We can help immigrants to learn English and the Church's language as much as we can. They will learn eventually. I had a period time, I couldn't understand most of the conversations. I had to work hard to learn English if I wanted to live here.

My in-laws (white Americans), they sometimes go to daily Mass to Vietnamese church nearby if they couldn't go to their parish morning Mass for some reason. They don't understand the language at all. But they go to Mass to receive our Lord in the Eucharist. They can pray together with the priest and the people there silently. They can follow the Mass with their English missal, because the Mass is the same whatever the langauge is. They can supplement the readings further at home, if they need to. Actually they became good friend to them (some of them speaks English). My in laws end up sposoring and fostering a Vietnamese boy who wanted to come to America. They helped him to learn English and send him to a Catholic school here. (they are not rich people at all after raising their 11 kids) I think there are many things we can do to help immigrants in a more personal level than just have different languages in public affairs here and there randomly.

America is a great country. And this is a Country, not a refuge center. True, it is founded by immigrants. But English has been used as the Language to unite the people as one here for this country. It's our duty to learn the culture and the language and help others to become good citizens here. In our county, there are free English classes offered to immigrants in the community colleges.
And for the Catholics, it's our duty and right to listen to our Holy Church's teachings and learn her Mother language to be united as one body of Christ.
Mia

I was born and raised in Hong Kong and I grew up with Chinese liturgical music. They are played by organs (at least for the 2 parishes I grew up in) and they are pretty decent for liturgical use (though they will never be better than Gregorian chant, although some people in Hong Kong try to sing Gregorian chants in Chinese). The translation is very accurate and I have rarely heard 'pop' melodies at Mass. Things may have changed a little bit in the past couple of years. I heard there is LifeTeen Mass in Hong Kong now (probably for English-speaking teenagers from the US). Well, I don't know how relevant this post is to the topic...but I just thought I want to share with you all about this....

Michael: I lean towards Latin and chant as the glue that holds us all together.

I lean that way too.

Once when I was told by a member of staff that we should start putting more "Hispanic" music into our Masses, I told her that the choir wasn't capable of singing Guerrero.

(Of course, she meant Donna Pena.)

If you select certain ethnic groups and give them preferences, (because there are more voices than other groups), isn't it really a discrimination to 'minorities' of the minority, which is actually against the original intention of the whole thing? The ethnic groups who don't have big voices are the ones who need to be recognized and need help. Most big ethinic groups already have lots of social contacts and their support groups in America, including their own liturgies and churches. (I really think America is a generous country. I don't think this kind of thing can happen easily in the country where I'm from.)
I wonder what the real intention of the whole thing, 'liturgies for a particular "ethnic" group', is?

Save the Liturgy and Save the World (I love this qoute. I
hope it's not copyrighted)
Mia

I think a lot of this long ago passed the point of being ridiculous. In many parishes, we have the morning hootchy-kootchy liturgy for the hootchy-kootchy crowd, the hour later non-hootchy-kootchy liturgy for that crowd, followed by the afternoon liturgy for the lesbian midget hootchy-kootchys, etc. Where does it end? At the local Hispanic mass, they have an actual bar band which plays. They know as much about church music as my sister's cat. As I have said many times before, it's a lack of leadership on the part of our bishops. They could enforce Pope Benedict's musical desires, if they chose to do so.

" Do we really need to focus on different ethnic groups, whose number are almost limitless, or should we focus on Glorifying God in our Liturgy and try to unify us as one body?"

I agree with you completely.

As miacoyne and Michael point out, we could improve the situation by focusing on God. However, the overwhelming trend of the last 40 years has been to focus on the "us" in the congregation. Every different "us" needs something that marks its specialness from the other groups and has a unifying effect.

(I commute to my current organ gig and have been listening to Huxley's "Brave New World" on CD. Way too many contemporary hymns can be reminiscent of a distopian "solidarity group" meeting. Look in your current hymn resource - EF directors skip this part - and see how many songs begin with the word "we.")

Changing the understanding of liturgy and worship away from group self-affirmation and back to the glorification of God and the sanctification of the faithful is a massive task, requiring efforts coming from all directions at the faithful out in the pews. And of course, that presupposes that architects, designers, liturgists, clergy, musicians have already been successfully catechized themselves.

In other words, we have to be in this for the long haul.

miacoyne, I'm with you, but I'm simply reminding myself how difficult it is to argue about matters of faith when the person on the other side has a completely different paradigm that I do. These people come to Mass to worship and in order to do that it has to be in their language or they won't understand their own prayers. That's a powerful argument and one that led to the biggest outward change in our Church 40 years ago. Now, I really don't have that big of an issue with the vernacular Mass, but every parish should have one Latin Mass each Sunday for people to "grown in to".

Thanks to all for your comments. They have been useful and they point to the continuing problem of the visions of church that i referred to in other posts. I work in a parish that seems to revel in the "diversity, not unity question" and very horizontal understandings of the church. So that means the African-Americans sing gospel, the Spanish sing Hispanic music (there are definite division within that group) and everyone has to do their own little thing.

Where is the universality? And lastly, is it more important to be _______ (fill in the blank) than Catholic?

Ora et labora,
Kevin

Why is it so hard to learn simple Ordinary parts, Agnus dei , Kyrie.. in Latin. Do they even give a try, before whining about it, because the Church tells everyone to do it? They don't know the meaning of those prayers they've been saying in their language? Immigrants are brave people who decided to come to a different country to start a new life, risking everything including language barriers. They would be hearing their children complaining that they have to study in the language they don't understand. I'm sure they are ready to set an example for their children.
I'm not saying the entire Mass should be in Latin. Just the Ordinary parts, as our Holy Church asks us to do. Catholic faith requires humility and obedience. The musicians can introduce them one at a time, starting with the most simple ones. Today, I've got the most encouraging email from a young priest who studied in Rome saying he has come to appreciate what unites the Church. There are priest out there who aprreciate our work. Someday each parish will have EF mass. But we can prepare for it by educating people by introducing them simple Ordinary parts in Latin. Then, people can truly choose which Mass, when the time comes.
If you really want to recognize and appreciate different ethnic groups to make eveyone feel good, I have a suggestion. Christmas is coming. Why don't we suggest churches to have evening of 'Christmas around the World? where all different ethnic groups get together with different Christmas songs, food, costumes and get to know and appreciate each other in more personal way. That would be much more effective than try to accomodate these groups in different Masses, and don't even know who they are after Mass. Our Liturgy is definitely not a place for a culture show.

Can't say I'm not in the middle of them. We have a parish that is split 50/50. It is like having two parishes under one roof. Oil and water. What happened to the universal church? Everyone is so concerned about "their own" culture that the two never meet! Up with the latin mass. Down with divisionity... sorry... i meant diversity.

DA:

I don't want to be standing anywhere near Bugnini on judgement day.

What is her definition of sharp?

Welcome, Malaysian Catholic!

About the bishop's idea: I'm not sure I understand what benefit he seeks. If I knew more about it, I might agree, or might not. Inculturation is not a goal in itself. It is an effort to express the holiness and beauty of God, for the spiritual good of the faithful. It is not the same thing as a project of "cultural preservation" for its own sake -- worthy as such efforts are.

The "inculturation" of the liturgy needs to run in both directions: to bring the Faith and the liturgy into the languages of many nations, and also to introduce the people of many nations to the common culture of the Roman Church. The heritage of the Roman Church belongs to us Roman Catholics just by the fact that we are members of the Roman Church -- in contrast to the various Eastern Catholic Churches: Byzantine, Coptic, Syro-Malabar, Maronite, etc.

Of course, the fact that you and I are members of the Roman Church instead of being, for example, Byzantine Catholics, etc. -- this is a historical accident;. Or to say it in a positive form, it's just a matter of divine providence. It is a gift which we received at our baptism, just as we received the gift of our national identity from our parents.

There is a wonderful heritage in each of these "particular Churches". They each have their liturgy, their characteristic languages, their tradition of music, their particular emphasis in theology. And to neglect this heritage is to cut ourselves off from roots that nourished the saints before us.

Of course, it is permitted to employ the vernacular languages in the liturgy now, but the Second Vatican Council intended them to be added to the Church's liturgical life -- not to replace the Latin forms.

It's too bad when people see the revival of Latin forms and of the Church's classic music (Gregorian chant, and polyphony), alongside vernacular forms, as a loss instead of a gain! It seems an unreasonable fear to me.

Are people worried that the new music in vernacular languages seems inferior by comparison with the traditional Church music? If so, it is a challenge to the composers of vernacular music, to bring together the Church's musical heritage, and the best sacred music forms of their culture, and their own artistic skills into the task of inculturation.

With best wishes...

MIACOYNE!

Would you please email me directly....noeljones@usit.net

Thanks.

Thanks for the comments.

Its a bit beyond my powers to even point out to the other language groups (Chinese, Tamil and Bahasa Malaysia) that they are to learn Latin. But I let me anticipate the problems. Firstly, they will slaughter the Latin (when they sing in English, their accents and pronunciation already makes me chuckle sometimes). Secondly and perhaps more importantly, the work of inculturation has been trying to remind the natives that Jesus was from the East, not alien to them as a White Man (in fact, some Bahasa Malaysia terms, because of its influence by Islam, are identical with the Biblical Hebrew). Introducing Latin is seen as reversing the efforts of inculturation, efforts which has brought with it numerous conversions to the Lord Jesus Christ among the non-Catholic peoples. As we just gained independence 50 years ago, there could still be some deep resentment against the white colonial master and intimidation of the educated, technologically savvy, powerful, wealthy, upper class English speaking community. Latin brings up all those associations.

Our situation is complicated because the English-speaking community here actually feel more at home with Western culture- from Bach to Britney Spears - and we've become alien to our original Chinese or Indian culture. Particularly because we are an oppressed minority here, we, in our turn have resented the national language and many are not conversant in Bahasa Malaysia (can you imagine an American who does not prefer speaking in American English?).

The challenge that Chanok has presented is daunting and the English speaking community cannot turn its back on it. If I can tweak it a bit, that role is: to bring together the Church's musical heritage, and the best sacred music forms of the various cultures present in Malaysia, and their own artistic skills into the task of inculturation.

In practical terms, I don't suppose any of you have any experience with Gregorian chants in Tamil, Chinese or Bahasa Malaysia? I have a feeling it will sound weird. It's very hard to do a multi-cultural Mass....

I will ruminate further

Some further thoughts as I reflect on the discussion in this thread from the beginning.

Kevin, I'm sure by the phrase, 'is it more important to be ___________ than to be Catholic' you were not identifying the Latin Gregorian chants as essential to being Catholic. Clearly they are not; they are essential to the Latin Rite. Eastern Rites are not bound by to pray in Latin with Gregorian chants but are equally as Catholic. It seems to me therefore, that we cannot argue for the use of Latin as a way of creating or expressing unity in the Catholic Church (correct me if I'm wrong).

I have an awkward situation where as part of the World Youth day preparations, I asked the choir to introduce the Latin Mass ordinaries. Now our parish is singing it weekly at all Masses. However when I asked the bishop what he thought of this, he said, 'I understand Latin but do you and the rest of the Church?' Basically he's not in favour. So,when he is celebrating, no to Latin, yes to multi-cultural Masses

Chonak, I think its a good point about diverse musical styles. Gregorian chant then plays a new role as a unifying element for Tamil, Chinese and Malay. If these work at multi-cultural diocesan events, they may eventually be picked up by the ethnic communities (of course, working on the chants in their language will already require their collaboration)

One last reflection about 'ethnic' (I've never heard it described like that before this thread) Masses particularly M Jackson Osborn's experience of 'ethnicised' Western music. I don't know if it was done to make it more palatable to general sensitivities. I kind of did it as well. When we did a multi-cultural Mass for a youth event, I asked the Chinese and Tamil communities to choose songs which were translations from the English. Were these authentic to their culture? Probably not. Were more people happy that they could mentally get into the spirit of the song? Yes. I don't know how long we'll be 'delighted and enriched' at authentic ethnic Masses. Once the sense of quaintness and amusement fades, ethnic Masses may become something else. I understand that a regular Mass in Nigeria is 3-hours long. Maybe we should thank God we are saved from full-blown ethnic Masses.

Lastly, I am reminded of St Paul's debate about circumcision for the Jews and non-circumcision for the non-Jews. Basically, the Jews wanted to impose what they considered a divine commandment on the rest but Paul argued that circumcision's late introduction into the Israelite faith indicated that it was not necessary for salvation. Correct? Can that same argument be applied in the issue of introducing Latin and Gregorian to the non-European/Western countries? How would you respond to that? Is the way forward, a different set of rules and possibly new Rites as suggested by Priorstf (I am well aware that none of us has that power to create new Rites but I mention it since it was suggested)?

Thanks and God bless. Awaiting comments and discussion.

Regardless of past arguments, the Roman Church has stated clearly that Latin and chant are fundamental to the liturgy. We can only rely on what the Church asks.

I see here a discussion that circles around the importance of understanding by the people.

This departs from the central core, the Mystery of the Mass. I would suggest that paring away elements that conceal the Mystery, such as Latin, Chant, Rubrics and Practices, result in making what's going on easily understood at the lowest level then also permits the parishioner to sit and say, "Well, we are here, talking in the language we use on the street, wearing the clothes we wear on the beach, the reader is wearing shorts and flip flops....and the Holy Blood and Body of Christ are not coming from the consecrated fingers of a man who has given up the freedom of life's pleasures, but by the pharmacist who hands me cream for my hemorrhoids...so what's the big deal about the wine, flour and water?"

Take away all the protecting elements, the rungs of the ladder one must climb to understand and get closer to the Mystery, and the Mystery is cheapened.

Grandmother's Ruby brooch hidden away and taken out only on Easter to wear to Mass has a perceived value higher than that of one worn to play Bingo.

Bingo has such an aura (a parish I was at had Friday night Bingo, packed full of less-than observant Hebrew brethren who had to get the Bingo fix on a night when it was not on the boards at the Temple) I think because it is so much like the Mass....held in a big room often in the same building, hordes of people flocking in, quiet while someone is speaking (numbers caller) the major difference is that there is no trickle of people leaving a few minutes before it is truly over!
The aura is due to something so unholy is going on in a holy place...

Mass in a gym with out of tune guitars was the beginning of this mess.

Forget all this trying to put stuff in the local language. Send all priests to a Billy Graham school of preaching, let them mesmerize peope in the vernacular in the sermon. Watch donations increase.

Note to priests: When another is celebrating Mass, stand just outside the church door. As people make the "I've been to communion I'm gonna meditate in the car on the way out of the parking lot dash" you then:

Smile, put out your hand, shake their hands repeating over and over again, "Thank you for coming to Mass."

Watch. The shock of it all will get to them. As they turn from receiving Communion they will be thinking.

"Hmmm. Sit....or head for the door. The door. Possible encounter with smiling, forgiving priest. He knows that I know its wrong. Think I'll sit today."

Do the Latin. Sing the Latin. Novus Ordo in Latin. No ethnic group gets a preference. Except Dan Quayle who apologized in Latin America for not having studied Latin in High School so he could speak with them in their tongue.

Does the Church have many Dan Quayles?

Ah...too bad, truth is usually funnier. Thanks for clearing that one up!

Dear MC, Your countrry seems to have lots of different languages. Just curious, what language does your president,( or whoever is in the equivalent position,) speak when he addresses to the public? Also, various groups of people with different lagnuages, how do they communicate? Do they battle over which language should be selected as a common language? Do they feel Malaysia as one country, or at least try to be one country?
Mia (I'm from Korea)

Miacoyne, you are right, Malaysia does not have an united identity. The official language was Malay and it was promoted in a wave of 1980s nationalism but recently for economic and global purposes, English has returned. Our Prime Minister speaks both languages but more Malay. Its ironic that generally the ethnic groups identify their unity under English; like me, they cannot speak Chinese (or Tamil) fluently. We are called derisively, 'bananas', yellow on the outside but white inside. On the other hand, Chinese and Tamil insist on schools run in their own languages and some end up being quite deficient in Malay or English.