The Vatican Intervenes....Really?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    What a pleasant surprise to have received two editions of "SACRED MUSIC" in the mailbox today. My general MO is to thumb through the articles in order to prioritize which of them will require a significant amount of time to absorb and digest.
    When coming upon Jeffrey Tucker's article in Winter 2012 V.139.4, "The Vatican Intervenes: No More Tropes in the Agnus Dei," I thought, "Oh, this I can manage in a lunch setting." Would that Jeffrey had confined his remarks to the title's implications. He rather chose to further his approval of curial intervention with the USCCB/ODW (presumably) regarding troping with a similar plea for the Vatican to also prescribe a solution to a problem with the pre-MR3 Glory to God settings that he literally declares was a collaborative intent that "amounted to a rhythmic occasion of sin: it put the first line in a clear triple meter (!)" But evidently to his chagrin, Jeffrey was "astonished" after MR3 that "the publishers (bwahahaha)" starting pouring out new floods of bowdlerized Glorias that mangle the whole structure. He doesn't cite a single setting from three years ago, nor of more recent vintage. Neither does he credit the spate of incredibly beautiful Glorias that have taken root elsewhere, both newly minted and recovered. And he wonders "How could this be happening?" He claims his inquiries "led...to an extraordinary revelation. The U.S. Bishops approved it. And that's that".
    Well, yeah. But he can't resist the "j'accuse" moment of blaming the bishops for "unleashing" the publishers to undermine the intent of MR3's translation, prima facie. And he laments "I have no idea how the Vatican allowed this to happen...."
    Uh, perhaps they've had a few other agenda items on their front burners than what the relatively healthy worship practices of U.S. Catholics experience on Sundays compared to Europe and elsewhere? Or an adjustment to one scandal after another, not all of them about biology and priests, that has plagued the curia under now two living Popes? Or the shifting ecclesiologies that have resulted prior to and since the abdication of Benedict XVI?
    No, Jeffrey wants to know: "Why hasn't the Vatican intervened here?"
    Well, let's just consider this right off the bat before we castigate the Liturgical Industrial Complex in the US still-breathing horse: could it have anything to do with the factual reality that inside the venerable walls of St. Peter's Basilica, some of the most "bowdlerized" renditions of the Gloria were sung and heard repeatedly in that sacred space. Whether from the era of Bartolucci, Liberti to the present day, under different scholas and different directors, Gloria of Mass VIII has been virtually "troped" by many and varied faux-polyphonists and, to add insult to injury, sung as if they were finales of a Verdi opera? JT sez all it would take to straighten these publishers and the dumb luck locals from perpetuating the "corruption of its structure and text" would be "One quick fax or email."
    Is this from the pen of one of our most brilliant economists, organizers, and entrepreneurs we've come to know and love as "the bow tied one?" The zeal of one's convictions should not be undermined by the naivete of the "squeaky wheel always gets the grease."
    6/8 time signature Glory's and refrain versions are not the sole archetype any more. And I would think that a journal as esteemed as SM would require a more thorough examination of the processes both domestically and institutionally than mere caricature. YMMV.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Mozart has quite a few Mass settings with Gloria in triple meter. All of them occasions of sin?
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • '...healthy worship practices... compared to Europe'???

    Um, where would these be????
    (Outside of the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, the non-Roman rites, and maybe 2 or 3% of Roman rite parishes and a small minority of religious houses?)

    (Um, we are, of course, often reminded that the English language changes over time, and that the meanings of some words also change: could this, um, have happened to the word 'healthy' while I wasn't paying attention???)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Oh, Jackson, don't be so obtuse. At least we're still going to Mass in the USofA.
    But if you require a tangible answer, uh....let's say.....uh, Germany. That do?
    Have anything to say about the topic?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Andris, did we first meet in New Orleans?
    In answer to your query, damned if I know! Oops.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,091
    The talk about "bowdlerizing" and "troping" the Gloria (whether in the article or here) isn't clear to me. Are composers inventing texts and adding them to the Gloria? Are they cutting parts of the integral text out? What are Jeffrey and Charles talking about?

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Richard, Jeffrey's talking about "bowdlerizing" the Gloria texts by interpolating refrains, old news. I said that the interpolation of polyphonic portions of the Gloria text by Capella Sixtini or the Petrine Choir amidst the chanting of setting VIII amounts to "virtual" troping, not via texts, but with disruptive, self-aggrandizing augmentation. Neither of which had anything to do with the nominal title of his article in the periodical, which made it even more strange, to me. What's good for the goose....
  • Melo: now it is you are being obtuse, or disengenuous:
    Really! The alternation between chant and polyphony in liturgical texts is hardly an innovation, knowledge of which I'm sure everyone here, including you, is aware. This is neither bowdlerising nor troping. While alternatim practice has not received the opprobrium of 'competent ecclesiastical authority', reducing Gloria to sing-song verse and refrain most definitely has.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Perhaps this concern of mine is tilting at windmills, MJO, but I'm certainly not disingenuous. I'm, in point of fact, trying to help CMAA from appearing to endorse disingenuous rationales for why something seems disturbing to the liturgy and blaming un-named third parties, while at the same time unconcerned about what others (and there have been OTHERS besides myself in CMAA) have observed that are, as you say, "accepted practice" but nonetheless also interrupt and disturb the flow of the liturgy within the walls of the center of Christendom.
    The other yet unaddressed portion of my concern is what was the impetus for the drift of the article to leave the subject, the troping of the Agnus Dei, towards an indictment of an unidentified body of new Gloria settings, and a simplistic conclusion that "Rome" could settle it with a phone call?
    If the MSF readership believes this is all well and fine to draw the line against certain forms of "performance" settings and modes of performance while justifying others on other grounds, then so be it.
  • Ahem, I seem to recall that even the not particularly eminent campus where I and my fellow dopey classmates undertook Music History 101 - more decades ago than I care to think about - did manage to inculcate in us the fact that troping flourished for, what, six centuries before the Council of Trent? Certainly for at least five centuries. Which suggests that the musical impulse represented by troping might require more than one particular lay editor's denunciations to quell it.

    Good grief, when I consider how recently gazillions of Catholic parishes hereabouts were weaned off guitars and drum-kits, and how many Catholic bishoprics in the States have been forced into de facto or de jure bankruptcy through payouts to the victims of sacerdotal rock-spiders, am I going to get bent out of shape over troped Glorias, let alone triple-meter Glorias? No, I am not.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Diogenes has found his man!
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    "What goes on at Monte Cassino, stays at Monte Cassino"
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,268
    Shouldn't the Doh-clef on the first staff of the Gloria be on the third line, rather than on the fourth staff? Otherwise, the custos at the end of the first staff is wrongly placed for a clef change.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,100
    Also, I'm missing the point of these... they can't be used liturgically...
    Thanked by 1ronkrisman
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,403
    Well, Ben Yanke, it's quite a logical step, you see. For those folks who call themselves "Catholic" but reject the liturgical decisions of the Second Vatican Council, why not reject the liturgical decisions of the Council of Trent as well? Bring back all the sequences, and all the tropes!

    However, I believe that Chris_McAvoy identified himself as Anglican or Episcopalian in one of his postings. (My apologies if I am mistaken.) I would suppose that someone not bound by the liturgical disciplinary law of the Catholic Church could trope to their heart's desire, as long as that is in conformity to the liturgical norms to which they are bound.

    Or perhaps these postings are of an academic nature entirely, and the poster never envisioned that these scores would actually be used at Mass.

    Then again, what in the world does this musical score have to do with Melo's original posting?????
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    I think they're just examples of troped texts
    Thanked by 3Kathy Ben Chris_McAvoy
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,100
    Well, Ben Yanke, it's quite a logical step, you see. For those folks who call themselves "Catholic" but reject the liturgical decisions of the Second Vatican Council, why not reject the liturgical decisions of the Council of Trent as well? Bring back all the sequences, and all the tropes!


    Who here rejects the liturgical decisions of the Second Vatican Council? Certainly, some on this massive forum do, but not any sizable portion of people who post regularly.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,524
    I think Chris goes to Mass in the Ordinariate, which isn't as beholden to the Roman Missal.
    Thanked by 1Chris_McAvoy
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,091
    Well, I suppose that the troped Agnus Dei might be sung during Holy Communion as "alius cantus aptus".
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    RC, I thought I knew the GIRM fairly well, but dey ain't no fo'th option for the AD nowheres no how.
    But my thread is glad for the traffic. I'm just surprised no one's commented upon the main thrust of it. Err, did one of our eminent spokesmen/women bite off too much of his foot when contorting his argument into "is outrage" in our primary CMAA organ of opinion?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,091
    Ah, but Charles, I didn't suggest the troped Agnus Dei be sung at the time for the Agnus Dei.

    And yes, Jeffrey's comment about the meter of Gloria settings didn't make sense to me either.
  • For those folks who call themselves "Catholic" but reject the liturgical decisions of the Second Vatican Council, why not reject the liturgical decisions of the Council of Trent as well? Bring back all the sequences, and all the tropes!


    What has it to do with one or another Council? One must simply follow the liturgical books in force. The Missal of Roman Curia never contained tropes, not even before Trent. Neither it had more than 4 sequences. On the other hand, Trent allowed to preserve all the historical rites and uses of cities or religious orders. For example, the Dominicans continued to sing Laetabundus. Likewise nowadays one should use whatever is in the liturgical books. Neither form of Roman (curial) rite contains tropes, neither that of year 1962, nor that of 1969. Neither provides for a responsorial-style Gloria. If you have some legitimate local use where it is in the books then go ahead.
    Thanked by 1Chris_McAvoy
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,403
    Precisely, Andris.

    And what rite or usage of the Western Church - at any time in its history - had an Agnus Dei during the fractio panis and another during the reception of holy communion? No one would dream of singing a second Sanctus during communion (I don't think).
  • Well you're right Father - except, the thing is, when there is permission for the fourth option (another suitable song) why can't you do that? I mean, what if David Haas or Richard Proulx, or whomever had written or were to write a verse refrain song that said "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us." Would it be inappropriate for use during Communion?

    And as far as the Sanctus - A cathedral that I'm aware of sang a choral, polyphonic Sanctus during the preparation of the gifts on the fourth Sunday in Ordinary Time when the first reading contained the text from Isaiah "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts." They then, of course, did the congregational Sanctus as the appropriate place. Wrong? I don't really see why it would be.
  • If Richard Proulx wrote it in the last year, it would be decomposing by now.

    If David Haas wrote it, based on the other work he has done, it shouldn't be used liturgically, although it might be useful for some other circumstance.
  • I couldn't readily think of another top shelf modern composer and I was in a hurry!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,158
    Umm, Richard Rice, Frank LaRocca, Peter Kwasniewski, Jeffrey Quick, Jeffrey Ostrowski, Royce Nickel, Mike Olbash (our backyard)......Thomas Savoy, Leo Nestor, Jeffrey Honore, Chris Willcock, Jacob Bancks, Chris Mueller, Richard Clark......