THANK GOD someone else realizes "when in our music, God is glorified" is bad! Well.. it shouldn't be consigned to the pits of hell, and I'd program "three blind mice" at Mass if it were set to Stanford's tune. But still, if you want to make a statement about how great music is, why not direct it towards God? Much better is "O God beyond all praising".

More to the point, I'd propose that we all can roughly agree on what texts are admissible and which aren't. Maybe we'd differ on EXACTLY where the line should be drawn, but is it such a HUGE cause for wailing and gnashing of teeth if I don't mind using "I am the Bread of Life" and David won't touch it? I'm not saying the finer points shouldn't be brought up, but I don't think the difference between "When in Our Music" and "O God, Our Help in Ages Past" is as big as that between the latter and "Let there be peace on earth".

Gavin,

I hope I didn't give the impression that "When in our music" was a bad text. Quite the contrary, it's one of my favorites. My point was that apart from, say, a votive Mass for musicians is the text really appropriate for a Sunday liturgy?

I appreciate your recognition that there are degrees of difference. What I'm trying to determine is if there is a clear delineation between texts that are and are not appropriate for use in the liturgy. (I wonder, out of charity and because our exchanges have always been honest and well-reasoned, if you don't want to reconsider your use of "I Am the Bread of Life" as an example, only because there's been quite a bit of ink spilled on the whole "congregation singing as the voice of God" problem. Just a thought . . .)

G,

While I have not made a thorough study of Pratt Green's texts, I can raise one very clear example where a text he wrote is contradictory to the Faith. First of all, it's important to be clear that Pratt Green never intended for his texts to be used by Catholics, so there is no evil intent in his contribution of these texts. Within the context of Methodist theology, they're quite sound. But within the Catholic paradigm it is easy to miss the subtlety of their inappropriateness.

In verse two of his text, "God Is Here! As We His People", he writes,

Here are symbols to remind us
of our lifelong need of grace.
Here at table, font and pulpit,
Here the cross has central place.

There's a suggestion that the action of the liturgy is embodied in symbols set forth as a reminder, not in the action of the Holy Spirit through the body of Christ, in the person of the priest and the people. Moreover, the "table" is, in Catholic sacramental theology, not just a table but an Altar of Sacrifice. It and the font are central locations for the confecting of sacraments: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacrament of baptism. The pulpit on the other hand is the liturgical location for the proclamation of the scriptures, which is not a sacrament. With this text we state that each are co-equal and important, that they are symbols or a reminder of some other reality, and that the liturgy is nothing more than the hackneyed notion of "sharing a meal, sharing a story, sharing a common bond through baptism."

I've come to realize that the motivation for the serious study of this issue is the fact that so many mainstream "lay ministers", primarily people engaged in formation and catechetical programs, dismiss or underestimate the importance of music as a vehicle for formation. They talk about how this or that "style" of music (typically contemporary, i.e., electric everything overamplified with a rock beat, as against chant, etc.) feeds and nourishes people based on how the music makes them feel, while completely dismissing the importance of the words. I'm on a crusade to reclaim the intricate union between the texts of what we sing and how we as musicians are equally, if not more, responsible for the formation of people's understanding of the Faith through careful selection of not just the melodies but the very words we put in people's mouths through the texts we ask them to sing week after week.

Now, let's be careful out there. (Anyone else remember "Hill Street Blues"?)

P.S. Michael- Sackbuts. Sackbuts? Are THEY on the list of "other instruments, legitimately admitted"? ;^)

Well, objectively I do enjoy "When in Our Music", but you're right that it's inappropriate for the Mass (I'd go so far as to say for all worship) I suppose I don't fret so much about hymn texts because I take a bit of a stance that if something doesn't jump out at ME, someone obsessive about theology, it won't do a thing for someone in the congregation. There have been some hymns where I've looked at the text during Mass and thought "ouch, won't do this one again" but those are few and far between.

Even with "God is Here", I wouldn't really say the use of "table" (or "bread and wine") is inappropriate. "Altar" would be more accurate, but there is still the meal aspect to the Mass, being fed with the Body and Blood as with bread and wine. Now texts that explicitly say "it's just bread and wine", and there's plenty out there, should be avoided, but so long as the Body and Blood being symbols of food doesn't overshadow the reality of the form, it's pastorally defensible. I solved that problem by just not using Eucharistic hymns 99% of the time, and when I do only using those that explicitly say "body and blood".

I should add that perhaps deciding texts should be the pastor's call. I've gone to mine quite a few times to ask if a text I want to use is acceptable or not.

I share your frustration over hymns ABOUT liturgy (When in Our Music, God is Here, anything by The Duo Which Shall Not Be Named) rather than liturgical hymns. Although I'd suggest that such hymns could be appropriate for the closing hymn, since it does not supplant any of the propers. Then again, "G****r u* *n" wouldn't be appropriate for the closing! But no huge loss.

And the "vox dei" issue is a good point of why I don't think we can just all agree on criteria for hymnody. I really don't see the problem with it at all. I would challenge anyone objecting to those texts to go find ANYONE, of any age, who sings "I am the Bread of Life" who can't tell you who the Bread of Life is. No one screams at Midnight Mass when the schola sings "The Lord said to me: you are my Son" thinking that the schola thinks they're either God the Father or God the Son. Admittedly, in some songs such as "Here I am Lord" it can be confusing (is the chorus Christ's response to the Father or ours?) but those can be evaluated on their other shortcomings and eliminated.

@MOC

"Also aren't there are a number of antiphons that quote Jesus?"

A fair number of antiphons for the Mass use the words "dicit Dominus" when quoting Jesus, but the most prominent antiphon that doesn't use that attribution is the Easter Introit "Resurrexi". There may be others like it, but none off the top of my head.

Gavin scribbles:
"I really don't see the problem with it at all. I would challenge anyone objecting to those texts to go find ANYONE, of any age, who sings "I am the Bread of Life" who can't tell you who the Bread of Life is."

BMP scribbles back:
Good point. However, could you say the same for the other one - "I myself am the Bread of life, YOU AND I are the Bread of life?" Not me.
BMP

Thanks to all for the comments.

I'd like to get this train back on the rails, if I may, and ask the question again: how do we effectively choose appropriate hymnody week after week for our parishes, especially if we've got nothing other than Gather, Worship or "Breaking Bread" to select from? I'm looking for the practical considerations moreso than the philosophical.

Could those who enter into this discussion spell out the process they go through in selecting hymns? I realize that some of you may be in quite advanced parishes that don't even use hymnody, or are in the process of making the migration from congregational hymns/songs to using the appointed chants in the Gregorian Missal, etc. For those of you who fall into this category, how did you go about making that transition? For those of us who are dealing with a music program still stuck in the "hymn sandwich" paradigm, any advice would be welcomed!

Good catch on Gavin's part for the introit. The middle verses of "The First Noel" would also make a good Communio match, btw.

I'm closing with "Joy to the World" doing some substitute work tomorrow morning on my first Aeolian-Skinner in about 10-1/2 years (I didn't pick the hymns, though).
BMP

Michael,

Unfortunately my research notes are in storage, so I can't give you an immediate answer. Next time I'm in my storage unit, I'll dig them out. I rather doubt I was too specific about instruments, as my focus was on the alternatim organ Mass during the time of Couperin "Le Grand". I have to wonder how long a Solemn High Mass must have lasted, if all of the alternatim options were exercised. I realize that there was considerable overlap between what the priest celebrant did and the music, but still, I wonder if a Solemn High Mass lasted at least 1-1/2 hours with all of the music.

For those who may not be familiar with the serpent, it's a really unusual instrument. It has a large "S"-shaped body made of wood wrapped in leather, with the end opposite the mouthpiece typically capped with a highly decorated brass collar. It has six finger holes on the curved portions, and I think there were at least two keyed notes as well, utilizing "forked" fingerings similar to the krumhorn. It was played with a large mouthpiece similar to that of a trombone or tuba mounted at the end of a metal neck (bockal - sp?), similar to a bassoon, making it both woodwind and brass. My familiarity with it comes from my experience as a military musician in the field of interpretive ("living") history for the War of 1812 period in the United States (I served as a field, that is, battlefield, musician for the 2nd U.S. Artilery Regiment, playing the fife and the drum). The serpent was used as a military band instrument in both the U.S. and Europe through the 1800's. It was replaced by the bass bugle in U.S. military bands during the Civil War period.

(See, friends, I'm not just an obsessive church musician!)

David Andrew - Does your interpretive band have a website? I'm currently writing a book on the War of 1812 and would love to include references to contemporary American music and the providers thereof. (also multi-faceted obsessive here)

Gavin's comments were quite useful, and not all that different to the way I select music. The other dimensions I include are:

Latin vs. English

Familiar vs. New

At the beginning of the year, I went through every song in Breaking Bread and evaluated its "familiarity" (a rough guess, of course, given that I'm not a Cradle Catholic), language, being "traditional" (over 100 years old :-), and being "chant-like." I ended up with a list which is useful to call upon, and of course over the years people start becoming more familiar with some of our music. I'd be happy to share the list with you, David: carl@dierschow.com.

This year, I was given the opportunity to add an insert to our Breaking Bread which contains not only chant propers in English and Latin, but also a few simple songs. It's been really nice to be able to call on that to expand the repertoire, as I don't want TOO much that people don't have the music for.

Carl