External Solemnity of Our Lady of the Rosary (EF) Introit question
  • Our pastor is celebrating the External Solemnity on the first Sunday in October. I have a note in my computer files for this feast that reads:

    External Solemnity of the BVM of the Rosary
    This Mass may only be celebrated on 1st Sunday of October.
    Gloria, Creed, Preface of the BVM (et te in Veneratione), commemoration of the Sunday. The Introit Gaudeamus is replaced by Salve from the Common of Feasts of BVM. If this Sunday is 7th (the feast itself) the Introit Gaudeamus is used and the Preface of the BVM (et te in Festivitate).

    I neglected to record the source, and I want to make certain this is correct (Salve, sancta Parens in place of Gaudeamus). Does anyone recognize this? The FSSP ordo I am using says nothing about the change of Introit. I'm supposed to get it right for our pastor.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,442
    The LMS ordo has the details (scroll down for note on External Solemnity):

    http://www.lms.org.uk/find-a-mass/liturgical-notes-2013

    But why does the FSSP ordo omit this 'rubric'?

    In my 1909 Liber Usualis the First Sunday of October is listed as the feast of the Holy Rosary, this was changed in the 1911 /1914 reform, and the Feast was moved to the 7th October. Under this change it was permitted that any Feast formerly attached to a Sunday could be celebrated as an External Solemnity on its former Sunday. The problem is that the Int. Gaudeamus mentions that this is the Feast day when really it is not.

    The compliers of the LMS ordo added in the extra rubric to solve this problem.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • Thank you! That's exactly it, and for some reason LMS didn't come up when I searched even though I check there not infrequently. C'est la vie. I hedged my bets for rehearsal--I printed Gaudeamus and Salve back-to-back to insert in the binder and we rehearsed both.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    This discussion made me curious so I dug into the missal a bit. It appears that the basis for the statement in the LMS ordo is the rubric for Holy Rosary in the 1962 Missal (excerpt attached):

    Die 7 octobris
    BEATAE MARINE VIRGINIS
    A ROSARIO
    II classis


    Gaudeamus omnes in Domino,
    diem festum celebrantes sub
    honore beatae Marias Virginis:
    de cuius solemnitate
    gaudent Angeli, et collaudant Filium
    Dei. Ps. 44, 2 Eructavit cor meum verbum
    bonum: dico ego opera mea Regi.
    V. Gloria Patri.

    In Missis votivis:
    Ant. ad Introitum
    Salve, sancta parens, enixa puer-
    O pera Regem: qui cselum terramque
    regit in saecula saeculorum.
    Ps. 44, 2 Eructavit cor meum verbum
    bonum: dico ego opera mea
    Regi. V. Gloria Patri.

    Then, if we go to the general rubrics (excerpt attached), we find that the External Solemnity of Holy Rosary is a "missa votiva":

    V - De Missis votivis
    in solemnitate externa festorum

    356. Nomine solemnitatis externae alicuius festi
    intellegitur celebratio ipsius festi absque Officio, in
    bonum fidelium, vel die quo festum impeditur, vel
    in dominica quando ipsum festum occurrit infra
    hebdomadam, vel alio statuto die.
    357. Solemnitas externa alicui festo aut ipso iure
    competit, aut peculiari indulto conceditur.
    358. Solemnitas externa ipso iure competit
    dumtaxat:
    a) festo Ss.mi Cordis Iesu;
    b) festo B. Mariae Virg. a Rosario, in domi
    nica I mensis octobris;

    So, because the External Solemnity of Holy Rosary is a votive Mass, the introit "Salve, sancta parens should be used."--which would have been nice to know the past several years when our schola sang Gaudeamus instead. Sigh.
  • My take: The intent behind permitting Our Lady of the Rosary to be celebrated on the 1st Sunday of October as an external solemnity was to preserve the Mass on that day even though the rest of the Office is that of the Sunday. This is consistent with the pre-1962 understanding of the external solemnity: a celebration of the Mass as on the day of the feast, making available the graces of the feast to the faithful who would otherwise not be able to attend the Mass on the feast day. So even though, the rubrics in the 1962 Missale suggest the Introit should be Salve sancta Parens, it is correct to say Gaudeamus... Mariæ... solemnitate as on the feast.
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    So even though, the rubrics in the 1962 Missale suggest the Introit should be Salve sancta Parens, it is correct to say Gaudeamus... Mariæ... solemnitate as on the feast.

    Your conclusion seems plausible, but it does conflict with the plain text of the rubrics, which treat external solemnities as a subset of votive Masses:

    V - Votive Masses on the External Solemnity of Feasts

    356. The external solemnity of any feast means the celebration of the feast without an office, for the good of the faithful, either on the day on which the feast is impeded, or on a Sunday when the feast occurs during the week, or on some other established day.

    357. An external solemnity either belongs to a feast by right or is granted by a special indult.

    358. An external solemnity belongs by right only to:
    a) the feast of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, on the 3rd Sunday after Pentecost;
    b) the feast of the Blessed Virgin Mary of the rosary, on the first Sunday of October;


    If you're correct, then the introit for "Missis votivis" would be sung only when Holy Rosary is celebrated as a votive Mass on some day other than the first Sunday of October--which I assume it can, given these rubrics:

    A. Votive Masses in General

    306. The term votive Mass refers to a Mass which is said outside of the order of the office or of the commemoration of the current day, and is not a mystery or a saint whose entry is given on that day in the martyrology.

    307. A votive Mass may be:
    a) of the mysteries of the Lord;
    b) of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
    c) of the angels;
    d) of the saints;
    e) for various occasions and intentions.

    ...

    309. The following may be celebrated as votive Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary:
    a) in the universal Church, the Masses assigned in the missal according to the various seasons for the Saturday celebration of the Blessed Virgin, and also all Masses of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary which are inscribed in the universal calendar;
    b) in individual churches, besides the Masses mentioned above, all Masses of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary which are inscribed in the particular calendars, and other votive Masses specially granted.
    If any of the parts to be varied according to the different seasons of the year are lacking in these Masses, they are taken from the common of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Except for the Mass of the Immaculate Conception, however, Masses which refer to the mysteries of the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary cannot be celebrated as votive.

    Although, is Holy Rosary a "Mass which refers to the mysteries of the life of the Blessed Virgin"? If so, then it can't be said as a "Missa votiva" except under the "external solemnity" rubric, in which case, I think your conclusion would be mistaken and the proper introit would be "Salve sancta parens."

    In brief: your conclusion may be correct if Holy Rosary can be said as a votive Mass on some day other than as an external solemnity on the First Sunday of October. If, however, it can only be said "votively" as an external solemnity on the First Sunday of October, then that is the only time it is ever a "missa votiva," in which case, the missal's instruction to sing "Salve sancta parens" for "Missis votivis" must apply to the external solemnity.

    Well, I'm going to do the only prudent thing: prepare both and ask the celebrant to tell me which one to sing.
  • ... ask the celebrant to tell me which one to sing.

    Always a good idea - and indeed a good first option.

    In his book from 1960, The New Rubrics of the Roman Breviary and Missal (available here), Rev. P. L. Murphy says in regard to votive Masses:

    OUR LADY
    As a votive Mass of our Lady any of the following may be chosen:
    (a) in the universal Church, the Masses of our Lady on Saturday, according to the different seasons, and also all the Masses of the feasts of our Lady which are inscribed in the universal calendar;
    (b) in a particular church, in addition to the above, all the Masses which are inscribed in the particular calendar, or specially granted.
    However, with the exception of the Immaculate Conception, Masses which refer to the mysteries of the life of our Lady may not be chosen as votive Masses (309).
    In practice, then, any of the following may be chosen as votive Masses of our Lady: Saturday Masses of our Lady, Immaculate Conception, Immaculate Heart, Queenship of Mary, Holy Name of Mary, Our Lady of the Rosary, our Lady of Mount Carmel, our Lady of Ransom,Apparition of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, our Lady Help of Christians (for the whole of Australia and New Zealand), our Lady of Perpetual Succour and our Lady of Good Counsel (for those dioceses in which these feasts are celebrated).
    The formulary for the above Masses of our Lady will be the Mass of the feast, unless another Mass is expressly indicated (315). Any parts of the Mass of the feast that may be wanting are supplied from the Common of feasts of our Lady (309 b).
    pp. 175-6.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,442
    Now the big questions is... can the Asperges be sung at this Mass.

    Have spoken to the compiler of the LMS ordo, he does admit to there being some questions about what should be done.

    The added Rubric was inserted following a dubium reply from Rome about the applicability of the Rubrics for Votive Masses from the Missale applying to External Solemnities.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    It's my understanding that the asperges is only done on Sundays, no exceptions.
  • There is no real question here. In the EF, the Asperges is a separate distinct rite that takes place before the principal Mass on Sunday. It is not part of the Mass, though obviously closely connected.
  • Very useful information, thank you for posting!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,442
    Now the big questions is... can the Asperges be sung at this Mass.


    I see my question was phrased badly.

    Q. Can the External Solemnity be celebrated as the main (Conventual) Mass?
  • Tomjaw,

    Do you mean that

    Now the big questions is... can the Asperges be sung at this Mass.


    is supposed to be

    Can the External Solemnity be celebrated as the main (Conventual) Mass


    ??

    Evidently Father Zuhlsdorf didn't do your translating! (Yes, I'm just pulling your leg.)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,442
    Its the same question! The Asperges can (should) be sung at the main (Conventual) (Sunday) Mass, now I believe that the External Solemnity as anticipated by the Rubrics should not be the main (Conventual) Mass, but another Mass.

    N.B. if you are not interested in Rubrical Questions look skip to the last line...

    Someone complained about us always having the Asperges at our External Solemnities, and so we stopped celebrating them... But after speaking to the Experts, it was the case that at places such as Westminster Cathedral, the External Solemnity was celebrated as the main Mass and the Conventual Mass was celebrated as another sung Mass.

    Colin Mawby tells me that he remembers 3 sung Masses on some days!

    So Yes, have the Asperges at your External Solemnity.

    EDIT added Sunday
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 464
    It's my understanding that the asperges is only done on Sundays, no exceptions.

    And only at the principal Mass.

    There is one possible exception I've been told of, though I haven't seen a printed reference, which is that the Asperges is done on the Feast of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel in discalced Carmelite monasteries.