No Credo in the Vatican II hymnal!
  • I just received my copy of the Vatican II hymnal, and am overall very impressed. Maybe I'm completely out of the loop on some relevant piece of information, but I am very disappointed and baffled by the fact that there are no settings of the Creed included - neither of the two ICEL settings nor any of the Latin Gregorian settings! Does anyone know why this is?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Here are some thoughts:

    A) The choices made by the editor were (generally) made in attempt to provide music for what is commonly sung, especially by "smaller" parishes (cantor & organist, etc.). Others will disagree about the the degree to which we accomplished this task.

    B) In the editor's experience, the Credo is often not sung at Ordinary Form Masses. Obviously, this is not always the case. But it seemed a fairly accurate statement. Further, it seems a fairly accurate statement that there is not a "common" melody of the Credo sung at the majority of Ordinary Form parishes. Again, others will probably disagree.

    C) Where it is sung, it seems that the melody chosen (Latin or English) would, perhaps, be particular to individual parishes. There are certainly a lot to choose from. Fr. Sam Weber, Richard Rice, the ICEL versions, etc.

    D) The idea was to try to include as much as possible, but still realizing that many parishes will (for instance) sing a different Mass Setting than those included (which would have to be provided) or a different Credo. However, such a thing would not have to be done differently each week, which (as we all know) is a lot of work.

    THAT BEING SAID, I would certainly welcome thoughts others have. Perhaps future editions will include this.


    I forgot to say:

    (A) Watershed encourages the singing of the Credo, as can be seen HERE.

    (B) One nice thing about the Vatican II Hymnal: the Credo (and ALL the new parts of the changing ICEL translation) are included in big bold letters. In Latin and English. It is ALSO included in Latin & English in the Extraordinary Form section.
  • Wow, a response straight from the editor himself! : ) Thank you for that!

    My point is that since you made the seemingly bold move (I mean in that in a positive way) of including all of the proper texts from the Graduale, especially the Gradual Psalm and Alleluia verse, in an effort to promote the singing of the "real" propers, I would have expected the same kind of encouragement at singing the Creed. But your points are well taken, and I agree that it's impossible to have an all-inclusive hymnal that is still practical and easy to use for the typical parish.

    Thank you for all the great work you do!
  • Now that pat.fiorillo has brought it up, I'm curious how many OF parishes sing the Creed on a weekly basis. Other than the 11 a.m. Mass at St. Paul's / Cambridge, where Credo III in Latin alternates with Marier's English settings, I don't recall any OF parishes that sing the profession of faith. How many of you sing it?
  • Raldolph, I've never once heard it sung anywhere. So what you are doing at St. Paul's is thrilling.

    It is truly the great oversight. Well, that and 1000 other things.
  • At the Choral Mass at St. Patrick's in New York, Credo III is usually sung in Latin by the congregation in its entirety.
  • Shortly after the American implementation of Vat. II, using the "new" interim translation, I asked the Associate Pastor before his Mass (with the new mixed choir) if he wanted the Creed sung. His response: "You neeeeeveeer SING the Creed! it is you Profession of Faith." It has always brought a picture to my mind: make sure you are holding your newsprint Missalette in your LEFT hand, raise your RIGHT hand, and profess your Faith. I believe this concept was taught in the seminaries, even before Vat. II was history.

    Now keep in mind that this priest was also the one who was coaching us before Confirmation, assembled in the parish hall / gymnasium, smoking a cigarette, when one of the class asked him about smoking. His response to that was simply, "Do as I say, not as I do." Also, less than 10 years later he left the priesthood and got married.

    Save the Liturgy. Save the world!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,601
    I have to say the Marier's monotone accompanied vernacular settings of the Gloria (that's in public domain, I believe, at least it was so announced at CanticaNova years ago) and the Creed were particularly brilliant, if not to everyone's taste. Congregation just needs a G; the organ (and, if desired, choir) does the rest.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Chanting the monotone Creed is the first step to singing it....Go for it!
  • Here is a recto tono Credo from Anglican sources. I'll work on putting the new Missal English to it this weekend.
  • As a proud new user of the Vatican II Hymnal, I will admit that I first wondered why a sung Creed/Credo was not included. However, I am in the very rare situation of a college chaplaincy that always sings the Creed, both in English and in Latin depending on the Mass. Apart from this chaplaincy, I have never heard the Creed sung in the context of the Ordinary Form anywhere in this country or in any other country I've been to Mass in. In fact, if memory serves me right, the only place I ever heard the Creed sung at an OF Mass was the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC.

    So, from a demographical point of view, JMO's decision was perfectly sound. It will be YEARS, maybe DECADES, maybe never, before parishes are singing the Creed. And if there was a genuine desire to start singing it, a simple card or bookfold paper with the music could be easily provided -- or even pasted into the front or back cover of the Vatican II Hymnal, as we've done here by pasting extra music into the back of the Parish Book of Chant.
  • Liam, I agree about the Marier monotone Credo setting. It works really well! Any chance this might be reset with the revised Missal texts?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,601
    It's unclear. The people who had been working on a privately funded basis on the update for the past couple of years are no longer in related employment at the parish, so it remains to be seen what the heck will happen.
  • There is a version set by Nellie Louise Schreiner when she was assistant to Edwin Arthur Craft at Trinity Cathedral in 1947 that I have and need to reset with the text. All lush organ chords for the E.M. Skinner, with a choral part at the end, all chanted on Ab.

    Since the original posting, I have discovered that this was a handwritten copy with her initials indicating that she had prepared the copy - but not written it - she may have added the Lord's Prayer text....
  • scholistascholista
    Posts: 109
    I was pleasantly surprised that the 2011 GIRM calls on all Catholics to be able to sing the Credo:

    41....Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    We haven't sung it since the late sixties. When the subject comes up, the answer is that it is too long and will make the mass longer. The masses are spaced pretty close together, so that could be a problem.
  • A sad (if well-intentioned) oversight. Of course we should sing the Credo.
    I don't use the Vatican 2 Hymnal, but that's (partly) because my parish is served by the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest.

    I know I've said it before, but since it's immediately on topic, it's worth repeating: I have successfully taught Credo 1 to a group of (mostly) non-Catholic children, and all of Mass XI to a group of homeschoolers.


    Sure, Mass it too long. Wouldn't want to extend our audience with the King of Kings! I won't shoot the messenger, since I realize that you're just reporting facts on the ground, but I'm absolutely convinced that when we stop treating Mass as our 45 minutes with God once a week, average parish life will improve. How many of these parishes have long sermons? I'm not opposed to "long" sermons, as long as they are content rich, but I do find it silly that we cut out something we're supposed to include so that we can have more fluff.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Gavin DougS
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    cgz, you make a point - but - don't imagine that this is a "modern" or American problem.

    A few years back Bob Batastini from GIA wrote an article about taking his choir to Rome to sing, and all of his aspirations and hopes for that liturgy, along with all of his letdowns! He said that to his surprise, the master of ceremonies at St. Peter's was primarily concerned with moving mass along smoothly and getting them out in under an hour!
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Cgz, of course it is not my call. And yes, the sermons are often too long. We have masses at 7:00 a.m., 8:30 a.m., 10:00 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. The crowds have to exit and clear the parking lots to make room for the next mass. Then time is needed for the new arrivals to get in and get seated. As you can see, the schedule is tight.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • scholistascholista
    Posts: 109
    I just sang a slow, thoughtful, four-minute Credo III.

    As a symbol of the twelve articles of our faith, which come down to us from the Apostles, I would say that the four minutes - minus the time it takes to say it in English - could easily be afforded at any Mass.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I was gonna say... I bet it takes an additional 2, MAYBE 3, minutes to sing the creed.

    Everybody got time fo dat.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 72
    We have never sung the Creed. What a shame too. It's interesting to note that Musicam Sacram lists the Creed as belonging to the second degree of "progressive solemnity". So it should be sung only if those parts belonging to the first degree are sung:

    28. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.

    These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially, may never be used without the first. In this way the faithful will be continually led towards an ever greater participation in the singing.

    29. The following belong to the first degree:

    (a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

    (b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.

    (c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord's prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

    30. The following belong to the second degree:

    (a) the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei;

    (b) the Creed;

    (c) the prayer of the faithful.

    31. The following belong to the third degree:

    (a) the songs at the Entrance and Communion processions;

    (b) the songs after the Lesson or Epistle;

    (c) the Alleluia before the Gospel;

    (d) the song at the Offertory;

    I bring this up because often times our priest will not even chant the introductory greeting, dialogues and Collect. Let alone, the Eucharistic Prayer...
    Thanked by 1scholista
  • PGA,

    I don't claim it as a uniquely American problem. That said, Bob Batistini in PRome in the last few decades is hardly an example worth holding up for emulation.

    Msgr Marini, anyone?
    Even if that weren't the case, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone hadn't said, "He's an American here to make a name for himself in MY building", and hurried him along.


    One should never cut the meat, nor even the necessary fat. Grissle has no place in liturgy. Perhaps if we didn't have 5 minutes of announcements at the end of Mass, or long interludes in our psalm singing we would have time for the reverent receiving of Our Blessed Lord, good sermons and a simple Credo. Our High Mass (EF) clocks in at just under 90 minutes on a pretty regular basis, and this includes having the Epistle and Gospel read (again) in the vernacular, an Asperges and prayers at the foot of the altar, none of which happen in an OF Mass.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Yes, these are OF masses, and the pastor is in charge and I do it his way. No one really cares what the EF does, although there is one later in the afternoon. However, when I go to my own Byzantine Church, I expect the much longer liturgy and the people don't mind that it runs hours rather than minutes.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • PeterJ
    Posts: 86
    I have encountered quite a number of parishes over the years (in the UK) where singing Credo III happens every so often (if they are also singing Missa de Angelis for the rest of the Mass, for example). It is a delight to sing.

    Also, on some rare occasions, Credo I.

    I have never ever heard the Creed sung in English.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,428
    I would say that the four minutes - minus the time it takes to say it in English - could easily be afforded at any Mass.

    While I whole-heartedly agree with this, it's important to note that a similar argument could be made for every part of the Mass, and that taking a slightly longer amount of time with each part can easily mean the difference between 50 and 90 minutes.

    Not that there's anything wrong with a 90 minute service.

    It is very, very much worth noting, though, that the typical "time-strapped" parish Mass wastes untold minutes on all sorts of things:
    -the formalized informal greeting. "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Good Morning!"
    -the repeated refrain of the Gloria
    -the announcements
    -the rambling homily
    -the rambling prayers of the people ("For those who work to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and those who oppose their work, that they may set aside their differences and walk hand in hand toward the Easter promise of Peace and Justice for a New and verdant Earth where all God's children have the opportunity to live together in harmony, pursuing the unique gender identity they have been entrusted with. Oh Lord, we pray.")
    -the intro to the Sanctus (Duhn dun... DUHN dun... DUHN Dun... dumdumdum....)
    -the hugfest of peace
    -the processional waddle of the EMHC platoon into the sanctuary
    -the closing remarks
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    If the powers that be really wanted to sing the Creed, it could be done. You are correct about wasted time during liturgy.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben Yanke
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    Adam, that was a PERFECT description of a typical Sunday Mass around these parts... correct Mass setting too!
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben Yanke
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    There was a comparison between sung and spoken parts of the mass (dialogues and the priest's parts, the ordinary was not factored in) right after RM3, and it added less than 2 minutes to the entire mass if all the parts were sung instead of spoken.

    Still got time fo dat.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I have a theory, though not backed up by anything. Perhaps people are not so offended by a long liturgy, so much as they are offended by feeling like their time is being wasted?
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • For the revised translation, our priests started singing the opening rites, the 3 major collects, and the dismissal bits. We already had the preface sung. There's been no change to the length of mass. It adds a few min to sing the EP, but we just do that on big occasions as we did before the change. It really makes for a more solemn and beautiful liturgy.

    I don't remember which presenter brought it up, but in one session for the priests they were asked if they had ever been to a birthday party where happy birthday was spoken instead of sung. That really made an impression on our pastor.
    Thanked by 2SkirpR Andrew_Malton
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    If the time to sing Happy Birthday to its traditional tune is a problem, I have a solution...

    Much quicker.

    1464 x 272 - 37K
    Thanked by 2ryand Adam Wood
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Matthew, that is helpful but the key signature is too much for me! I wonder if it would be too much trouble for you to transpose it for me to something easier, like C Major?

    I think I will use your melody as thematic material for improvisations (or, as one of my singers calls it, "incidental music") throughout the Christmas season.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,115
    Matthew, I don't have very strong organ skills (very basic keyboard skills overall), but I think I may be able to use your propers and ordinaries in your new book. After using the chants themselves, I plan to improvise on them (using the same melodic themes, of course) for added interest.

    I don't know what I'd do without you. You're a Godsend.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Those of us who attended the Colloquium in Salt Lake City can attest that the Creed is sung at the Cathedral there every Sunday -- in Latin, wasn't it? -- antiphonally between the congregation and the choir (or cantor).

    As regards the time it takes to sing vs. speak, I contend that a sung Kyrie on the Missal chant is shorter than a spoken one, because it does not include any off-the-cuff improvisations.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,090
    We can also attest to the sheer beauty of the RECTO TONO PROPERS, KYRIALE, AND HYMNAL, as it was demonstrated at Thursday night's "workshop".
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I contend that a sung Kyrie on the Missal chant is shorter than a spoken one, because it does not include any off-the-cuff improvisations.

    Just to clarify, as much as some of us might not prefer it, the petitions/tropes before the third form of the Penitential Act do not have to be the ones in the Missal or the appendix. The rubric in the Missal states:

    The Priest, or a Deacon or another minister, then says the following or other invocations* with Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy)

    The asterisk refers to the following footnote:

    Sample invocations are found in Appendix VI

    Not alternate invocations, but sample invocations, indicating one can make local decisions about this.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Alas, the fumbling invocations made up by some of our priests are not well formed; they should be about Christ, and not about us and our sins. So they should go anyway.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    The weather is sunny and warm, Lord have mercy. R/.
    The air conditioner is on the blink, Christ have mercy. R/.
    Doughnuts after mass in the basement, Lord have mercy. R/.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,428
    Lord Jesus, you desire the reduction of green house gas emissions, which are definitively linked to global warming and unhealthy levels of consumerism. Lord have mercy.

    Christ Jesus, you call us to avoid genetically-modified food and to use acid-free recycled paper. Christ have mercy.

    Lord Jesus, you have given us the free will to make our own moral decisions regarding what does and does not constitute the sin of lust, and yet inspire us to ensure all people are safely protected from their own greed and gluttony by a beneficent State otherwise ignorant of your grace or existence. Lord have mercy.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    And may we have sexual equality and dignity for all LGBT Oompa Loompas, Lord have mercy.

    Sponsored by PETOL People for the Ethical Treatment of Oompa Loompas.

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,938
    How did we get sidetracked onto the trope-tracks of the Penitential act/Kyrie? Isn't this about having the Credo in the V2H ... and what to do about singing the Credo?
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,090
    Perhaps it isn't much of a side track : to have the opening remarks and the announcements combined into the paenitential act would save a lot of time, and then we could sing the Credo.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,115
    Jesus, metaphor, you take away the sins of the world...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Us? Sidetracked? How did that happen?
    Thanked by 2Ben Yanke Gavin
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    I like Salieri's idea.

    Lord Jesus, have mercy on those who do not go to the women's guild bake sale held in the hall after all of our Masses this weekend.. Lord have mercy.

    Christ Jesus, grant enlightenment to those who dare not volunteer at the parish festival, which will be held this coming Thursday through Saturday, hours are noted in the bulletin... Christ have mercy.

    Lord Jesus, please remind folks that I'm going on vacation and thus daily Mass is cancelled this Monday through Wednesday. Thanks. Lord have mercy.
    Thanked by 2SkirpR Ally
  • Mr. Chonak's remark about the Credo in Salt Lake City interests me, particularly that the phrases were sung alternately by the congregation and the cantor/choir. Alternate singing between sections of the choir was a custom recorded in the Liber Usualis, and was used for the Gloria as well. It respects the frailty of the typical congregant's strength. As one of my choir members said in another connection, "that's a lotta lasagna."

    In this Year of Faith, I'd like to introduce the sung Credo to my parish, and foster an alternate phrasing. I'm leaning towards an alternation between high and low voices. At the same time, I dislike any kind of verbal directions during the Mass, and so would prefer a discussion in the bulletin, and leading by example with the choir, or using two cantors.

    I would like to hear if others have tried to introduce alternate singing of the Credo or Gloria.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    Just print the instructions in your worship aid. I do a Gloria this way and nobody gets confused.
  • We sing the ICEl Credo III every week only at the 9 am Mass, since Oct 2012. This fall we will begin Credo I.
    It took some prep and a commitment to achieve this: The schola was drilled on word rhythms, and well rehearsed. They were sure of every lengthened note and every pretonic rush before it was ever sung at Mass.
    The first few weeks we would sing just a portion of it once thru ( no repeats ,no coaching) before Mass with the congregation - maybe about 6 lines.
    My rhythmic interpretation is dynamic, consistent but very simple so the choir can understand the method to my madness. I marked up their music so it's all the same. I thnk I only added a couple episemas. Then the congregation slowly picked up on it and now we all sing it at a good clip -just as well as we sing the Lord's Prayer. We sing it accapella or with minimum melodic support.