I think that many of the points made here are quite valid. My own take on this is that the definition of acceptable music for the church has changed for various reasons, not the least of which is that someone thought it would keep people in the pews and/or bring people back to them. That is, in my view, one of the chief concerns of the clergy: to pack the pews on Sunday. It sounds trite, I know, but it's a huge job for them, since evangelization is one of the main purposes for the Church. However, I think that there is an irrational fear involved: that if we take away some or all of what was conceded in V2, people will leave in droves again (as they possibly did leading up to the changes of V2), and one of those changes that they don't particularly care about is the music. I've noticed that many Priests don't care what type of music, or how, is performed at Mass, as long as it fits the liturgy (makes sense at the point in Mass where it should be performed, and contains no texts contradicting Church teachings; and is performed at the proper time, according to the rubrics in the Roman Missal). That being said, they DO want music at Mass. If they had the choice between allowing music that would be less than ideal, or having no music at all, they would choose to have music that is less than ideal. I think they realize also, as we all do, that music is an important part of the liturgy, and serves many purposes: not the least of which is appealing to "taste." As much as we would like to deny that it has anything to do with music in church, it does: the faithful (and even the un-churched) will, as we all know very well, choose a specific parish, and even Mass time, due to the music they hear (or even the specific musician!), all based on "taste."

So here's my take on what makes the music acceptable:

1. It must have Christ the Lord, our God as its focus.

2. Its text must not contradict any Church teaching.

3. It must be performed in a reverent manner, as an offering to God.

4. Its performance must be as technically and musically proficient as the abilities of the performers allow.

The performance of traditional hymnody by a trained musician/organist will meet all of the above requirements, however, they also leave room for some of the P&W typed music, as some if it actually does meet the above requirements, especially 1 and 2. The problem I have with much of the praise band stuff is that it does not meet requirement 1.

Once they were finished, one of the kids started a call and response shouting match with all the kids as if we were at a sports stadium which got faster and faster until it was reduced to shouts and applause.

Somewhere in his writings, Cdl. Ratzinger referred to "frenzied" (or similar) reaction to music NOT fit for worship. Music-inspired or not, "frenzied" doesn't comport to activity appropriate in a church.

Egads.

Nope. There was no exodus prior to VatII.

BUT THERE WAS ABOUT TO BE! THE YOUTH! MODERNS! AAAAAHHHH!

dad29... B16 he talks about that in his article, "Liturgy and Church Music."

http://media.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/liturgy&music.pdf

Anyhow...

So by some of this logic and documents cited, even my typical "toccata" for a postlude or "prelude" for a prelude (or whatever) would not be appropriate. Are preludes, postludes, and instrumental "filler" music only acceptable if they are actually based on something that has a religious theme? (Or what?) What if someone plays an improvisation that has no title and is not based on anything at all? That's technically not sacred music...

This discussion has taken many turns: concerts in churches, choir tour agents, propers, "P&W" (according to about a thousand different definitions), whether things like a Bach Toccata are appropriate at Mass, sacred/secular vocal music at Mass, etc. We seem to have returned to organ music.

Consider the following. When Olivier Latry improvised on the ascending major second (and descending minor second) of a Parisian fire engine siren at the end of a Sunday Mass, was it “secular” music inappropriate for a church? But if the intention of an organist is to offer his or her improvisation as a gift to God, not seeking the praises of his or her listeners, can it be considered sacred?

Certainly this improvisation was not based on the latest hit tune on the radio. I doubt that most folks present for that Sunday Mass (perhaps even many of the bombardiers themselves) detected Latry’s musical motive. Again, given the right intention of the organist, can this improvisation be considered sacred or, at least, something beyond the purely secular? You can judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlW_cdG88s

How did he manage to hold the host and speak at the same time?
How did he manage to hold the chalice and speak at the same time?

ASL can spoken one-handed. I believe (but I could be remembering this wrongly) that he would hold the elements in his left hand and sign with his right. I imagine there was also slightly more picking-up-and-putting-down than usual.

I don't know if it was strictly kosher or not, but I would think if ever there were a case for rubrical flexibility for pastoral concerns, this was it.

(This wasn't ASL-as-token-inclusiveness, BTW- we had a fairly substantial deaf Catholic population in that Diocese. Many parishes had interpreters for at least one Sunday Mass. A few times a year, the deaf community gathered at one parish or another (more often, mine) so that they could celebrate together in their own language.)

I think the thing that made an impression on me is that it isn't easy to speak English and sign at the same time (ASL's grammar is closer to French than to English). So the whole Mass slowed down to a focused pace of careful deliberation. I always looked forward to those Masses.

The prohibition against secular music at church concerts is one rule that I would feel perfectly comfortable breaking.

And words like these instigated Vatican II's fall from grace.

I actually have an archival copy of the gesture book to accompany Hi God, if anyone's interested!

No, he's right. French Sign Language is the basis for ASL. (Fun fact: We still sign hello with a b-shape as a nod to the French "bonjour.")

Oops - forgot to mention Frescobaldi's famous and elevation toccatas. Often, they are explorations of some pretty far-out harmonies and dissonances. Mystical, or Inappropriate?

Marajoy and Fr. Krisman attempt to return to the topic...

Fail!

Hahahaha, Sorry. I'll stop now.