The EF versus the OF in Latin
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    I have a serious question regarding the use of Latin in the two Forms of the Roman rite. We all know there are people who freak out at the mere mention of Latin. My question is, is that solely because of the EF (or TLM)? In other words, are there Catholics who really, really dislike the EF, but are happy to live and let live with the OF in Latin?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    In other words, are there Catholics who really, really dislike the EF, but are happy to live and let live with the OF in Latin?


    Other than perhaps a small handful, I doubt it.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Greg,

    Let's take that apart:

    are there Catholics who really, really dislike the EF


    Yes, there are people who call themselves Catholic who really, really dislike the EF. In fairness, Abp Sheen's observation that there is a tiny group who actually hates the Church, but a vast number who hate what they (erroneously) think the Church teaches probably applies to those who dislike the Extraordinary form.

    but are happy to live and let live


    In how many parishes are the options for girl altar boys, extraordinary ministers, alius cantus aptus and such optional? If one were to propose not using these, how often would one be accused of rejecting Vatican 2 -- or some similar spurious charge?

    the OF in Latin?


    This is the unusual situation. Often, those who try this are met with uncomprehending stares: wasn't the whole point of the reforms of Vatican 2 to make a proper place for the vernacular. Why would we attend Mass in a language we didn't understand?

  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    The OF in Latin is an option that is often just elided. And it shouldn't be. It would be easier to pull off in many respects than the EF so long as you have a priest who can handle the Latin, he won't have to learn new rubrics nor will you need to train servers, et cet. I would suggest that places considering adding a Latin Mass to their schedule should first consider a Latin OF for this reason.
    Thanked by 2Chris Hebard JulieColl
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    girl altar boys


    As an aside, can people just stop using this stupid phrasing, please?

    Whether allowing female servers is good, bad, or indifferent, they are not "girl altar boys."
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Adam,

    I actually heard a supporter of (whatever this phenomenon is) call the people girl altar boys.

    I figure if people who support the situation do, I should follow suit and use the expression. Sure, it's a stupid expression, but I didn't invent it. Then again, isn't it a stupid situation that girls serve at the altar when it's utterly impossible for them to be ordained as priests?
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I personally like the OF in Latin, though I am more drawn to the EF when it is sung.
    I used to direct a schola that sung for an OF in Latin. positive, fun bunch of people. So... I was surprised at the strongly negative reaction from several of them when I began to work in the EF. These were my friends, and frankly more intellectual than I am.

    Strangely, their emotion-based attitude was (is) something like, "I like the chant and polyphony and I don't like liturgical lameness or abuse, but I don't want to be like those people that go to the EF". I found their criticism to have a grain of truth in it, in that wacky people are part of every parish, whatever, Duh. But that approach was also blindly judgmental, as none of them came to mass at the EF parish and were still spouting off about "those people".

    Just goes to show you, everyone's got blindspots and baggage. And everyone's a critic.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Btw, the friends I mentioned are all ROTR in their approach to the liturgy.

    When there is tension between some people in the ROTR camp and some people in the EF camp, perhaps it's because they both feel threatened. Where there is a thriving EF, they perceive there is less need or desire for a Latin OF, and vice versa.

    Strange times. Praise the good wherever it is, I say.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Yes, it's unfortunate that the EF carries with it a whole bundle of traditionalist "baggage" and stereotypes that probably won't be completely dismantled for another generation.

    However, even in the two and a half decades I've been associated with the "indult Mass" and the EF, it is increasingly apparent that the beloved old hardliners are passing on. I would say from my own observations at least, that more and more people who attend the TLM are disaffected OF people who bring with them a welcome change in expectations and attitudes.

    I believe one can say that there are two very positive results of the post Vatican-II liturgical reform: an increase in congregational participation and perhaps a more relaxed attitude in general, which when integrated into the EF liturgical experience are welcome additions indeed.

    As for the ROTR folks, they are, at least in my experience, a rare phenomenon which is a shame, since I believe the OF in Latin could be a valuable bridge between the two forms of the Roman rite.

    Almost anything goes in the Latin Novus Ordo as some of us have discussed at length in another thread, and it's a great way for a parish to transition to a more traditional form of the liturgy.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Before an indult for the TLM was given in Detroit around 2004, there were a ton of Latin OFs around. Nowadays those have mainly turning into EFs. A Latin OF can be a wonderful thing though.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Julie- agreed that the Latin OF can be used to transition toward better praxis. Many observers and liturgists would say that an OF with just a little vernacular is what the council intended. I'm inclined to agree.

    Matthew, I've noticed that since SP, there seem to be more EF offerings and fewer Latin OF, too.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I'm with Cardinal Arinze on this matter. Do the new mass properly and maybe even do it in Latin regularly and the demands for the EF would be much less.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar Andrew Motyka
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    Another benefit of the Latin OF is that one need not be concerned with the limits on musical choices in the various levels of the EF. Readings can be in the vernacular without repetition in Latin. Et cet. Is it the same? No. For people particularly interested in the praxis of the EF, they would prefer the EF. But that overlooks the potential in the Latin OF.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    Do the new mass properly and maybe even do it in Latin regularly and the demands for the EF would be much less.


    I can think of quite a few places that started off having the OF in Latin but the journey to the OF in Latin drew them further, so they ended up having sung EF instead.

    In London there are plenty of OF sung Masses said/sung in Latin, and there is still a demand for the EF.

    The parish I grew up in had the OF sung in Latin every Sunday, when that was closed down by a misguided priest, an EF Mass started in a nearby parish. Many of us swapped parishes. For me finding the EF was like completing a journey of discovery, but one where the destination had so much more to explore.
    From others who have joined our EF community since, many seem to feel the same way.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Things are a bit different here in Australia. I believe that probably 80% of people who go to EF mass are refugees from parishes which served up Catholic-Lite homilies and banal, happy-clappy music in ugly box churches.

    One friend from another major city told me that the best thing that ever happened for their Latin Mass community was the SSPX setting up shop because sll the nutjobs went there instead. (His words, not mine.)
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Further to my previous post:

    A lot of Latin Mass people are pleasantly surprised at the quality of an OF mass wheee we use a Gregorian chant ordinary, and a combination of SEP propers and traditional hymns. They have informed me that they would like to see this sort of mass as the norm in suburban parishes.

    I followed this model of ICEL chant mass, SEP and traditional hymns for the ACSA 2013 Conference in Brisbane and got a pleasantly positive review on New Liturgical Movement for it.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 177
    My first experience of a Latin Mass was the OF. The "interim rite" from 1964 to 1969 was almost everywhere (Pacific NW) celebrated in English, and Low Mass...There were almost no High Masses anywhere. So, I have a deep appreciation for the OF in Latin. In the EO, I do not take well to the silent canon. Also, many times the EF mass that is available, and I also don't take too kindly to the mixing of the chalice during the gradual (but it does make the mass shorter). I quietly wonder sometimes if some of the changes of the rubrics in 1967 might have been worthwhile. Please, do, let me make it perfectly clear, I wouldn't want my own personal predilections to be imposed on anyone else!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    I also don't take too kindly to the mixing of the chalice during the gradual (but it does make the mass shorter).


    I think you mean Offertory... One thing about the Old Rite is it is not all about ME.

    In the New Rite we have different groups of people taking centre stage one after another rather like a talent show.

    In the Old Rite it is more like an orchestra, we have people each with a role to play, the Priest does one thing while the choir does another, the servers also follow their own role. The congregation meanwhile have a wonderful choice of what to do or follow.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    @ Hartleymartin

    The same thing you have described goes on in Switzerland, their EF Masses are full of people who would much prefer OF in Latin. Sadly they also try to turn the EF into the OF, with German Songs, no Propers, and readings only read in German.

    But I do wonder how long it will last, their children generally fall away in their late teens. Meanwhile the Swiss FSSP communities have failed to produce any Vocations to the Priesthood.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    In the New Rite we have different groups of people taking centre stage one after another rather like a talent show.

    In the Old Rite it is more like an orchestra, we have people each with a role to play, the Priest does one thing while the choir does another, the servers also follow their own role.

    So the choices are pretty much "talent show" or "three-ring circus," it sounds like. At least, if one insists on making the least flattering comparisons possible.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Why would we attend Mass in a language we didn't understand?


    Easily the most stupid argument made by the iconoclasts; after 40 years of saying/singing the texts in English, one should know what they are.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    isn't it a stupid situation that girls serve at the altar when it's utterly impossible for them to be ordained as priests?


    No. Your hidden assumption is that being an altar server should lead to priesthood. That's like saying that putting an engine in a car should lead to racing.

    By the way: the legislation which permits female altar servers was written by Pius XII when he authorized females to sing in parish choirs. JPII's legislation was merely an extension of Pius XII's.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    In the New Rite we have different groups of people taking centre stage one after another rather like a talent show.


    Yes. The OF is decidedly more linear. Personally, I'm not sure that the EF's "non-linear" mode is preferable, precisely for the reason you mention:
    the congregation meanwhile have a wonderful choice of what to do or follow.


    Is that better, or not?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    JP2 didn't legislate explicitly that women could be altar servers, dad29. For those not familiar with how things unfolded: it didn't come from the Congregation for Divine Worship (then headed by the ruling started in the dicastery that provides interpretations of church law, headed by Abp. Vincenzo Fagiolo. In response to a dubium, they took a provision in the 1983 Code of Canon Law about lay people being permitted to perform the liturgical functions of reader (under temporary deputation), commentator, or cantor; and extended it to the function of serving at the altar. After that Pontifical Council voted to adopt that interpretation, the Cardinal got Pope John Paul II to approve it on 11 July 1992. That happened to be the day before he was hospitalized with an intestinal tumor.

    After that had been accomplished, the decision was sent to CDW to be announced, but it wasn't announced until 1994. The ruling was a somewhat controversial one, inasmuch as it seemed to run counter to the principle that liturgical law is not overridden by canon law in cases where they conflict.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    So the choices are pretty much "talent show" or "three-ring circus," it sounds like. At least, if one insists on making the least flattering comparisons possible.


    My grandfather (a convert who joined the Church onboard ship during WWII) referred to the "New Mass" as "a three ring circus with two rings broken."

    Also, he couldn't figure out why people complained about Latin. He was an uneducated sailor from Missouri and he could follow along and know what was happening.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The ruling was a somewhat controversial one, inasmuch as it seemed to run counter to the principle that liturgical law is not overridden by canon law in cases where they conflict.


    Pius XII's liturgical-law writing (1955 Christmas, IIRC) was the precedent. If he had not allowed womenfolk to sing in church choirs, it's not likely that "girl servers" would exist--licitly, that is--today.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    dad29 is referring to Musicae sacrae, n. 74, which expressly allowed for women and girls in choirs outside the sanctuary, a practice that had been long established here in the US.

    Yet in 1980, it was still explicitly stated (in Inaestimabile donum, n. 18) that women were not permitted to act as altar servers; this reiterated the 1970 instruction in Liturgicae instaurationes (n. 7).
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    On chonak's previous comment, notice "outside the sanctuary."


    And on the OF in Latin, there are plenty of American priests who can do the same rite in English and Spanish (and/or others). What's the congregational beef with a priest who offers OF in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, and/or maybe even the official language of the church?


    Harrumph.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    And on the OF in Latin, there are plenty of American priests who can do the same rite in English and Spanish (and/or others). What's the congregational beef with a priest who offers OF in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, and/or maybe even the official language of the church?


    This, finally, gets back to my original question: does there exist an exotic group out there that likes the OF in Latin but not the EF? Aside from MACW's schola?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Fr. Ruff, I imagine.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Ironically, we used to have an OF in Latin here in Toulouse.
    The first (and maybe only) time I went, I thought I was a bit late because the chapel was full. Then I realised that it was the end of an EF, which was scheduled just before.
    Lo and behold, after the last Gospel, the quite full chapel emptied, leaving just a handful (and a small one at that) of people. A moveable altar was wheeled out to allow versus populum celebration (quite unnecessary !) and the priest and lone altar server appeared. A brave one-man schola provided a sung Ordinary from the choir loft. Readings and proper prayers were in the vernacular, otherwise everything in Latin.
    I gather that the bishop got rid of it some time later owing to its "great" popularity...

  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Greg,

    I don't know if such a group (coetus) exists, but I would imagine that someone at the Adoremus Bulletin or the New Liturgical Movement would have contacts with it if it existed.

    The mentality would need to be one of rejecting the Latin Mass not because of its Latin, but because of its theology -- which would be just right for a dystopic novel.

    Cheers,

    Chris
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    Well, I have no interest in the EF, but would be attracted to the OF in Latin.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    There are plenty of groups that prefer the OF in Latin. There would be many more but so many have turned to the EF.

    I know that the numbers of EF Masses are increasing, and will continue to increase as more traditionally minded priests are ordained. I do wonder how the number of OF in Latin, have changed over the last 10 years.

    There is a mentality that rejects the EF, and sometimes it is due to the Theology. More often I think it is due to the attitudes (and mind set) of the people attending!

    We have also read of other problems mainly to do with participation... See this thread.

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/9804/dr.-jerry-goes-to-an-ef#Item_43

    N.B. I should add I only ever attend the EF...
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    By the way, regardless of how it came about, I am NOT in favor of 'girl servers'. It's a silliness.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    dad29,

    Do you mean that you're opposed to the term 'girl servers' or to the reality of girl altar boys?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I never agreed with girl servers, but in reality, servers don't do much anymore in the OF mass. It seems not so significant in that mass. They had/have more of a function in the EF.

  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    More often I think it is due to the attitudes (and mind set) of the people attending!


    Which "attitudes" do you mean?

    1) Unless you know everything the way my teacher taught me in 1954, you're going to rot in hell with all the .....
    2) What do you mean, "I don't read the Wanderer."?
    3) Low Mass is the real Mass: we don't need all those "frilly" extras.

    or

    1) Mass isn't about me, at Mass I'm invited to worship God.
    2) Don't sing at Mass: sing the Mass.
    3) Domine, non sum dignus
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Unfortunately, in my region we have too many from your first list, and not enough from the second.
  • vogelkwvogelkw
    Posts: 55
    During my time in the seminary we had Mass in Spanish once a week and Mass in Latin once a week. For the Latin Mass, we alternated between OF and EF. Formation in EF was available, but I was unable to take too much advantage of it with my workload.

    Having before come across the remarks of Cardinal Arinze about Latin OF (alluded to by hartleymartin above), I agree that having the occasional Latin OF would be great. I know of a few parishioners (very small number) who attend daily Masses/reconciliation at our parish (English OF) but go to a parish with EF for Sunday. I don't know if there is a category of those who hate EF but tolerate Latin OF, but my guess would be there are a number who go to EF who would love a Latin OF celebrated with beauty. And there are some who attend OF who would appreciate an occasional one in Latin.

    Languages are a challenge to me, but I would love to say Mass in Latin in either form. Based on Cardinal Arinze's comments I have placed learning Latin OF ahead of EF, not only because it is easier for me, but also it seems more practical in introducing in an average parish. I have started to celebrate Latin OF sometimes on my own on my day off, so my pronunciation is improving. I am a ways off in being able to do EF.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Concerning the ease of celebration for the priest, the OF has a significantly greater amount of singing, which is a difficulty for some priests.

    Archbishop Quinn in San Francisco used to love to celebrate Mass in Latin, but he would only celebrate the OF. He solved the problem of the greater amount of singing by singing all those parts that were sung in the EF, speaking all the others.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Marht, I didn't realize that the OF in Latin included more singing by the priest. What additional parts may the priest sing as opposed to the EF? A priest I know used to sing the words of consecration in Latin while the rest of the Mass was in English. He had composed his own tone, and I was never quite certain that was kosher, even for the OF where just about any configuration of sung/recited/English/Latin is allowed if I'm not mistaken.

    Father, I couldn't agree with you more about the Latin OF and wish it was more available. When I was young, I was fortunate to be able to attend the OF in Latin for many years at Holy Ghost Church in downtown Denver which was similar to Msgr. Schuler's Mass. It was such a welcome contrast to the usual fare. When I attended Christendom College, the Sunday Mass was also a Latin OF. Now we attend an EF Missa Cantata so the transition from one to the other was as easy as rolling off a log. : )
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Julie, pretty much everything aside from the Confiteor (if it is recited) and the homily may be sung by the priest in the OF. The biggest hurdle is the Eucharistic Prayer--not only the words of consecration but the whole text.

    We are blessed in this diocese to have a Vicar General who celebrates two Sung Masses a month; one in Latin and another in English, both on Tuesdays. (He uses "Form B" of the Penitential Act and sings EP II.)
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    The fact that it MAY be sung does not mean it MUST be sung. The main presidential prayers it would be nice to sing would be the dialogues, the collect and offertory/postcommunion orations.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Chris Hebard
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks, Aristotle. I don't think I've ever heard the sung Eucharistic Prayer. Quite amazing.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It is. I've heard the above mention Vicar General, and it's stunning when he chants everything. It's absolutely wonderful.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Julie, pretty much everything aside from the Confiteor (if it is recited) and the homily may be sung by the priest in the OF.


    Is there a specific rule that you can't sing the homily?
    Thanked by 3JulieColl Ally Aristotle Esguerra
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I believe the St. Ephraim used to.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Speaking of singing everything but the homily, several years ago, just before we started to sing every week in one of the California missions, the Schola Cantorum San Francisco gave a benefit concert at the Mission, and I went because I wanted to hear what the acoustics were like.

    The local organizer came out and gave some introductory remarks (without a mike) that were completely unintelligible. Then the Schola sang, and every word was crystal clear.

    While we were there, 2-3 of us used to 'cantor' once a month for their Saturday evening Mass. I refused to follow their protocol of going up into the sanctuary to the ambo to announce and sing all the hymns, Gloria RP, Alleluia, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. We stood in our corner and sang everything and no one ever complained that they couldn't hear or understand us. (We also snuck in the Gregorian Communion antiphon). No complaints, either from the congregation or from the MD, whose knowledge of the rubrics seemed to consist only of repeating "FCAP!!" - kind of like "AFLAC").
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