Dr. Jerry goes to an EF
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,270
    Saw this on FaceBook
    image

    For those of you who don't know, JG is VP and head of publishing at WLP.

    I can't wait to read his blog tomorrow.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,270
    http://gottasinggottapray.blogspot.com/2013/10/mass-in-extraordinary-form.html

    Sadly, the schedule was changed and he got a silent Low Mass.

    His reaction to it was completely understandable, and his response in writing quite charitable. He is asking for positive commentary on the EF from those who celebrate it regularly. I encourage those of you with a better experience of it than his to visit the combox.
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,472
    With his back to us

    Militaristic movements

    Back to us
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    Apparently, he didn't get enough warm fuzzies at the EF low mass. Too bad, he didn't witness the high mass done well. How would he have reacted? Don't know!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,736
    Here's the good quote from the piece:
    There were about 150 people in attendance. I would say that perhaps ten people were over 65. The rest were fairly young; people in their 30's, 40's and 50's.

    Can we say that about your average parish?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,472
    Charles,
    Doesn't matter, the priest ignores the people in both high and low mass.

    Chonak,
    You're falling into the propaganda that these masses appeal to a younger demographic who seek a transcendent experience with God in the liturgy.

    Hush now. Father is looking away from us.
    Thanked by 1TheUbiquitous
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    Perhaps Dr. Jerry would have liked the lyrics to this song.


    Faint - Linkin Park

    I am a little bit of loneliness, a little bit of disregard
    Handful of complaints, but I can help the fact, that everybody can see these scars
    What I want you to want, what I want you to feel
    But it's like no matter what I do, I can't convince you, to just believe this is real
    So I let go, watching you, turn your back like you always do
    Face away and pretend that I'm not
    But I'll be here 'cause you want what I've got

    I can't feel the way I did before
    Don't turn your back on me
    I won't be ignored
    Time won't heal this damage anymore
    Don't turn your back on me
    I won't be ignored
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,736
    If an observer thinks of strict, ritualistic movements as "militaristic", that's because other sectors of our culture have given up that type of highly formal and visually impressive ceremonial. The closest things most Americans ever see along that line are marching-band formations. College graduations don't show much precision.

    And also I suspect that Catholics in America have never really been a very orderly people: first, we're Americans. Moreover, a lot of us come from downtrodden folks in the old country, whereas formal public ceremonies are the work of a confident, secure class of people. And we have the modern impulse to hurry: the result is general disorder whenever the faithful are asked to form a procession.

    So if anyone wants to revive the beauty of ceremonial in the Catholic Church, they're going to have to take lessons from the folks who have nurtured it: traditionalists and Anglicans.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • Chrism
    Posts: 662
    At a recent gathering of mostly young adults after a Latin Mass to which we are all now hopelessly attached, we got to talking about our "first time".

    How many of us hated it and never wanted to go back? About 50%.

    How did we end up getting attached? We went back for one reason or another.
  • Sounds kinda like an awkward first date with a great person. Why not give it another try, Jerry. This time in its normative, sung form.

    There are lots of folks who love the EF the first time. There are other folks (maybe a bigger group) who start liking it once they get the hang of how to participate, say 3-10 times later. There are other folks who will never like it.

    But...
    If someone only gives it one chance, that's probably not enough to say they never want to go again. It's like reading one out of ten chapters in a book and giving a review.

    Why not go to St. John Cantius? Isn't that near him?

    Thanked by 3Kathy JulieColl BruceL
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,472
    Dangerous to do so. He might change his mind.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor Ben Yanke
  • :)
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • My first time back to Mass in years was a Low Mass. I grew up with Novus-Ordo-done-right, with lots of chant and a fair share of polyphony --- how many folks can say that, even now? --- and so I found the idea of the Extraordinary Form very attractive. Latin! Chant!

    I did not find the reality very attractive, even though a friendly lady went out of her way to invite me back.

    Given a choice between the Extraordinary Form and the Newman Center --- "Your last stop on the way out of the Church!" --- I chose neither and stayed home for another period of time. As my girlfriend at the time had it, the Extraordinary Form was dark chocolate, and too dark, while the Newman Center was milk chocolate. This, if anything, downplayed the experiences.

    My second time back to Mass in a while, I decided I was going to stick with dark chocolate, mostly for bad, aesthetic reasons. Better reasons have since replaced them, and I have never really looked back.

    To use an old set of images: For me, the Novus Ordo is like a stingray, a mechanism provoking an effect so insistently that it leaves me numb. The Extraordinary Form, on the other hand, is like a leper. Prolonged exposure wore down my immunities and infected me with its own condition, which is prayer.

    I never prayed as a kid, and I never prayed, really, the Novus Ordo. The EF gave me no other option.

    YMMV.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,270
    Jerry's a great guy and people oughta cut him some slack. If you have something constructive to suggest, his blog has a comment section.
    Thanked by 1Heath
  • Tried to post my same comment, above, on Jerry's blog. Issue with google. Bummer.
    Here's hoping Jerry lurks here enough to read your threads, Adam.

    Blessings, MA
  • TCJ
    Posts: 553
    His comment about the servers struck me. I've worked in a number of churches in which the servers have a complete disregard for what they are doing. It looks like they think it's a game, or a chore. They rock back and forth on their heels, talk to each other during Mass, blow out the candles, have a tendency to drop things, use the wrong items, prop their feet on kneelers, etc. Why anyone would complain (or at the least, think it odd) that servers actually are know what they are doing and do it WELL is a distraction is beyond me.

    I can understand a person who is unused to the EF to be a little lost at first, to think Ad Orientem is impersonal, to wonder why nobody says anything aloud, and so on. But the servers? You'd think that would be one point that sticks out as a serious improvement over so many churches elsewhere. Would he have still complained had they been inattentive and unmindful of what they are supposed to do?


    Okay, rant over. I'm actually happy that Dr. Jerry decided to attend an EF. I certainly don't think that he was just going so he could run home and be highly critical on his blog. Many of his thoughts were ones that I had when I first attended (though I was only 10 or so), so I can somewhat relate. What I can say is that he needs to attend more than just one Mass.

    In regard to Low Mass, High Mass, I think that in particular musicians will be drawn to a High Mass even more so than the average person. At least, that's how it is in my case. I tend to notice that a lot. Because of that, it's probably that much harder to be able to appreciate a Low Mass. In a way, I had an advantage (I think) in that I knew the Low Mass before I knew I was a musician and still had the impatience of a child, so the shorter Mass worked well for me. Now I really like attending either one. I love the music and the chant at the Hight Mass, but at the same time sometimes the silence of the Low Mass is really good for meditation.

    I hope that made some sense. It's nearly 3:00 AM here, so my thoughts might not quite be in order!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    People who read and write blogs should get real jobs and do something constructive with their lives. What time wasters! LOL.
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,947
    Well, I think I know what he means about the servers. I've seen servers trained with nearly robotic precision, and it is very distracting. There should be a natural fluidity that does not call attention to itself, but it can be lacking. The Roman way is more natural than a, say, Prussian way....
  • BGP
    Posts: 190
    Adam- I may repond but will have to wait untill the urge to..... it has passed.

    I have edited this comment because sometimes negative reactions should not be shared.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,270
    And really (you seem to be familiar with him) would it be worth the effort, his response to the EF is such a cliché?


    In his defense, it sounds like he attended a cliche of an EF Mass.

    I think he is a sincere a devout man who honestly is engaged and interested in Catholic tradition. His spirituality may never run in the direction that makes him prefer a Traditional Latin Mass, but I don't think he bears any malice or ill will toward traditionalism as such.

    Under his leadership, WLP produced the best musical settings of the new translation of any of the "major" publishers (several chant-inspired ones, and even the contemporary ones were of excellent quality), and his concerns are much more focused on the practical issues facing average parishes than for any liturgico-political agenda.

    I have found his difficulties with the new translation to be somewhat... I'm not sure.... basically, I disagree with him about the translation's problems, and I often feel like I don't know why he has the reactions he does to them. But under no circumstances do I think he's being anything other than sincere.

    Also, he bought me dinner once. So, you know- there's that.
  • Annnnnnd ... there it is. Adam can be bought for the price of a decent steak. LOL
  • I should add though in seriousness, that you must remember that nothing says that Catholics should be attached to - or like - the TLM. Vatican II was a REFORM for a reason. And I think even Pope Benedict acknowledged that. In fact, the freeing up of permission to celebrate the TLM was specifically a permission because of the existence of those "attached" to the older mass. The pope didn't say that all should learn to love it.

    I always find some of the anger on these topics puzzling. If he, or anyone else, never likes the TLM, I don't see why that's a problem. He doesn't seem to promote banal liturgy; he explicitly said that he was looking forward to beautiful choir singing, chant, and the organ. So it doesn't seem to me that his ideal liturgy feature puppets, bongo drums, and scantily clad women dancing on the altar. Maybe it's just the TLM specifically that he doesn't like. And I think that's ok.
  • BGP
    Posts: 190
    Paix- it's fine if he dislikes the TLM It's a tone in how he says what he says (or maybe it's my perception) that makes me sour. I could be described as a Traditionalist but with a more broadminded approach to liturgy (progressive traditionalism?) than the caricature. It is possible for someone to respect culture/tradition which is foreign and at odds with ones personal taste.

    In light of what Adam says about the man I think I will take the effort to positively respond to him.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,317
    I could be described as a Traditionalist but with a more broadminded approach to liturgy (progressive traditionalism?) than the caricature.


    Sounds very intriguing. Hope you can expand on this theme sometime, BGP. : )
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    Annnnnnd ... there it is. Adam can be bought for the price of a decent steak. LOL


    Hmmm! If it can be bought with a dinner, it's a ho - either that or a member of the clergy. LOL.

    In all fairness to WLP, I use their translations and musical settings of the revised missal. They are probably the best settings available. The accompaniments are particularly good.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,270
    http://gottasinggottapray.blogspot.com/2013/10/mass-in-extraordinary-form-part-two.html

    Update: He DID go to St. John Cantius.
    Also- he plans to go back next week for an actual High Mass.

    I recommend a traddie flash mob to welcome him and sweep him off to brunch afterwards.
    Thanked by 2Heath JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,317
    Very, very interesting. I look forward to what Dr. Jerry will say tomorrow. I think he's on to something here.

    By the way, BGP, going back to your comment @ progressive traditionalism, I think you're on to something there as well. I've thought for a long time that the usual paradigms (very little congregational participation, circa 1940's hymnody, Rossini propers, etc) surrounding the TLM could use a little updating. (Actually alot of Gregorian chant, a little polyphony and an Anglican hymn or two would do the trick very nicely. A little something for everyone.)

    In fact, my husband once proposed a little paradigm shift: it might not be a totally bad thing if just once an SSPX bishop was marched down the aisle to "City of God" and vice versa: someone like Cardinal Mahoney was processed down the aisle to Widor's Toccata:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOJPirowAM
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,402
    If you think Cardinal Mahoney has never walked down an aisle accompanied by Widor's Toccata, you'd be wildly mistaken.

    I do hope Jerry goes to a Missa Cantata or High Mass - I think it'll change his mind.

    Also, I've met this fellow before in person. He's a delightful gentleman.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,947
    It might help to understand that he's from Massachusetts, where the most minimalist of Low Mass mentalities long dominated liturgical praxis with a handful of exceptions (generally not diocesan parishes, St Paul's in Cambridge being an exception proving the rule, as it were). He's long lived in Chicago, and the Central European dominance of Midwestern Catholicism gave the Latin Mass a different, happier history in that region.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl JL
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    That Saint Sulpice organ is to die for! O how I wish it were mine.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,648
    #Advicewedon'talwaysnecessarilyhavetotake
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,317
    and the Central European dominance of Midwestern Catholicism gave the Latin Mass a different, happier history in that region.


    So true, even today the Europeans are able to inject a vibrance and joy into the traditional Latin Mass that is seldom replicated elsewhere. Actually the "swingingest" music I've ever heard at the TLM was this processional hymn from the Juventutem Mass in Madrid 2011:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vXKHgVNmDg

    Maybe this is trite and superficial, but I really believe the music which surrounds the TLM is largely what makes or breaks a person's attachment to it.

    (I'm looking forward very much to hearing the music at the Summorum Pontificum celebration in Rome on Friday. The Schola Saint Cecile will provide the music and their director, Henri de Villers, has an amazing music program at his weekly Sunday Missa Cantata and the people sing the Ordinary and the antiphons with great enthusiasm and vitality.)
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Maybe this is trite and superficial, but I really believe the music which surrounds the TLM is largely what makes or breaks a person's attachment to it.


    Not only do I think this is true, but I think it deserves its own comment thread.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,736
    By the way, Dr. Galipeau wanted to comment here, but had some trouble registering on the forum today; maybe it'll work for him tomorrow.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • I am newly registered and can also report having problems with the registration process. I tried registering several times but kept being told my entry in the "reCAPCHA" box was wrong. Two different computers were used, both PCs, one equipped with Internet Explorer 9, the other with Internet Explorer 10. Neither would work.

    Finally, I noticed that as soon as I hit the "Sign Up" button the information in the reCAPTCHA box would instantly reset. I switched to an Apple equipped with Safari and was able to register successfully. It would be interesting to know what browser Dr. Galipeau is using. Switching to another, if possible, might be helpful.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 924
    And we have another excellent post,

    http://gottasinggottapray.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/mass-in-extraordinary-form-and.html

    with more interesting questions for us to answer.

    Adam you are right, from his posts he seems a really 'great guy'.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    I am newly registered and can also report having problems with the registration process. I tried registering several times but kept being told my entry in the "reCAPCHA" box was wrong. Two different computers were used, both PCs, one equipped with Internet Explorer 9, the other with Internet Explorer 10. Neither would work.


    That's your problem, Bassorous: this isn't the site for the Affordable Care Act. ;-)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,736
    I'm trying another tactic for registration: the CAPTCHA test is out, but instead people have to wait for me to manually approve registrations.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,099
    You're right, Greg. This site actually has admins who know how to fix problems. :D
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,195
    Yep, Ben. It's a good thing this site wasn't contracted out to Canada! LOL.

    Welcome Bassorous! Good to have new people. I hate CAPTCHA tests, too. To my old eyes, they always look like something out of a demented fantasy novel. ;-)
  • gregp

    Thank you for responding to my post. I appreciate you trying to clarify what I site I was at but am a little confused. This is the site for music therapy, isn't it? And I'm covered without a copay, right? :-)

    CharlesW

    Thank you very much for your welcome. I have been aware of this site for quite some time and have read many of your posts. On historical questions, I've found myself very much in agreement with you. Again, thank you for your welcome.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    +1 (or +2 or +3) to Adam Wood!! I was delighted to read this statement in Dr. Galipeau's part 2 posting:

    ...people like Adam Wood balance things out for me. Thanks, Adam, for your kind words and call to civility.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood