Melody for 9th c. St Cecilia Hymn - Trochaic Tetrameter Catalectic meter
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    I am trying to typeset a 9th century breviary hymn that was common throughout certain regions of Europe.
    It is one of the oldest for St. Cecilia, Virgin and Martyr.

    I wondered if anyone could try yo make a recommendation on a particular melody in "Trochaic Tetrameter Catalectic meter" to match these verses. I know most of the standard liber hymnarius melodies and was hoping for something more obscure that was new, rather than use the same old ones such as the "pange lingua" type (one cant use it for everything!!).

    Another option might be to adapt a sequence melody to it, since it is rather long (14 verses if not divided in half), as certain sequence melodies are very close in meter if I recall...

    Your thoughts?
    Great hymn eh?

    here are examples of the verses.
    http://www.hispanomozarabe.es/oficio/brv-ymn/ymn-22nov.htm">
    http://www.hispanomozarabe.es/oficio/brv-ymn/ymn-22nov.htm

    LATIN
    1. Incliti festum pudoris
    virginis Ceciliae,
    gloriosa precinamus
    voce prompti pectoris,
    quo soluta lege mortis
    tollitur in aetheris.

    1. Of Cecilia, humble virgin,
    Bright of fame, the feast to sing,
    And to tell her virtues glorious
    Eager hearts and voices bring:
    Tell how, laws of death defying,
    She was lifted to her King.

    5. Sponsus hic furore caeco [caecus]
    comminatur virgini;
    sed beata virgo factis
    dicta prorsus comprobans,
    angelum munusque caeli
    mox adesse praestitit.

    5. Here her spouse, with fury blinded,
    Threatens her whom he had wed,
    But by deeds the blessed virgin
    Verifying what she said
    Proves at once the angel present
    And the heavn’ly grace there shed.

    14. Ut tuam, Christe, videntes [Christe, ut Tuam]
    servuli praesentiam
    gratulemur, gaudeamus,
    personemus gloriam[,]
    curiae caelestis arce
    confovendi_in saecula.

    14. That, O Christ, when we Thy servants
    See Thy presence, we may be
    Grateful, joyful, and unbridled
    In our worshiping of Thee,
    Mid Thy heav’nly walls enjoying
    Glory for eternity.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    LAUDA ANIMA.

    REGENT SQUARE (might be a bit too emphatic)

    (PICARDY - probably not)
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    yeah, I was hoping for an ancient melody no later than 1600.

    I am already familiar with

    " Ad Perennis, Bryn Calfaria, Den des Vaters, Helmsley, Lauda Anima, Oriel, Picardy, Regent Square, St Thomas, Tantum ergo, Westminster Abbey, Urbs Beata, Pange Lingua"

    I didnt feel any of them fit it, most of the 17th to 19th c. ones seem too happy or protestant feeling (one note per syllable simplicity was emphasized by protestant s, regardless of it's merits). Melodies such as Urbs Beata and Pange Lingua, due fit it well melodically, but because they seem overused I wanted something else I hadnt heard before from the medieval period in in the style of it at the very least. Thanks for the advice.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    Corrected Link to the Hymnus.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    Do you have all 14 stanzas in translation?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    I have a few old melodies...

    This Website has the Dominican ones,
    http://hymnarium.org/melodies/

    Try Melody 49
    Or a favorite of mine Melody 54

    Will have a look for the others later.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Yes, CHGiffen, I have all 14 stanzas in minimally paraphrased english in 8.7.8.7.8.7 meter.

    Tomjaw, the specific melodies you have recommended are among the standard office hymn melodies that I mentioned I had already tried.

    I'll put "8.7.8.7.8.7 meter" into google and see if it lists anything I havent heard of.

    Here is an example of a melody that is rare, which I used for another obscure mozarabic office hymn. It was an alternate melody for the pange lingua in the 15th century. I didnt feel this melody fit the Caecilia hymn either, it seemed more a melody that fit the life of Christ in my opinion. It must be a melody that can be written in neumes.

    image


  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    At the moment I'm looking at melodies for Tantum Ergo, a popular hymn which tended to have better tunes in this same meter.

    image

    image
    The first one seems better, second one is slightly too modern.
    Mozarts version also seemed a mismatch for a martyrs legend.

    There's a 17th century Corsican/Italian melody for Tantum Ergo that's very beautiful...I dont know if I can find the notation of it, i may have to transcribe it be ear..it seems to be the best I have found by far.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    image

    This ones interesting... 18th c. melody by Hadyn.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    Ah, I did not realise the Dominican melodies have names...

    Have you tried the Sarum melodies? see below for book.
    https://archive.org/details/hymnmelodiesfor00churgoog
    Melodies are found from pg. 28 on online version.

    This database has lists of melodies;
    You will need to search the text of each hymn using this meter.
    http://www.globalchant.org/
    Or this database,
    http://cantusdatabase.org/

    I believe this is an old melody:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/2010/01/AlleluiaDulceCarmenV3changed.pdf

    Otherwise...
    The following books,
    Cantus ad Processiones et benedictiones SSMI Sacramenti, Desclee, 1950
    Has 15 melodies for the Tantum ergo

    Manuel des Processions et Benedictions..., Desclee, 1921
    Has 19 melodies...
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Thanks for the advice. The melodies of the Sarum and Dominican uses are actually identical for this particular meter. The main difference in melodies is that the dominican has a few extra melodies for martyrs and saints in Iambic dimeter. For Trochaic meter the number is the same. I was amazed at how many melodies there were for the Tantum Ergo. After listening to about a dozen. I decided this was the best by far for a Martyr hymn. Modern western music does not seem to use mode iv melodies, yet that is why this melody is beautiful to me.

    The melodies for the Dominican use do not have names. The names were for post-reformation mostly protestant melodies that are popular in amongst modern day christians, I tried them to see how they fit and to see how different they are from earlier 9th to 15th c. melodies. Many of them were pleasant but very few fit with the divine office the way the older melodies do, most were quite inferior. The modern hymn melodies by the classical orchestral composers, bach, hadyn, mozart and similar types stood out as the best modern hymn melodies for the Tantum Ergo.

    image

    My work is done.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I don't care for where some of the breath marks are but I like the melody.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    IMO, I'm sorry to say, this is an exceedingly poor marriage of text and tune. The breath marks in the middle of words should be enough indication that another tune is required.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    ?

    What look like breath marks above divide the text into four-beat groupings, for the most part -- that is, if one treats the dotted punctums as two-beat notes. So they're being used as if they were bar lines in modern music. I'd ignore them.

    Are they perhaps a convention of Dominican notation?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Chris McAvoy's mode V tune offering above ('Now the Sacred Octave Brightens') is quite familiar to Episcopalians, who sing this tune paired with the English version of Tantum Ergo as found at no. 200 in The Hymnal 1940. This tune is, in fact, anciently associated with the Tantum Ergo text. More than a few Anglicans have wondered dumbfoundedly why Catholics use some of the awful tunes they do for this hymn instead of the proper plainchant tune.

    I would say that this tune works fairly well with Incliti festum pudoris (fairly well).
    And, I agree with Fr Krisman's observations about the Cecilian hymn above, Chonak's attempted clarification notwithstanding. The barbaric quarter bars should be eliminated, as should most of the episemas.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    MJO, I think you and I are referring to different tunes. The Mozarabic tune at no. 200 in The Hymnal 1940 is one which I also think should be used for Incliti festum pudoris. That is not the tune used by Chris_McAvoy five comments above, and which I thought a poor vehicle for the text. But it is the tune used by Chris_McAvoy nine comments above.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Yes, it reminds you of modern notation because It is mimicing a transcription of a melody written in modern notation by Henri Adam de Villiers (Schola St. Cecile, Paris).

    I am trying to contact him...I dont know if the email address I have for him is checked very often. If anyone knows how best to contact him, they may share that information with me.

    The advice that most of you have is to remove the quarter line and remove the horizontal episemas. That seems reasonable. Dominican and historical chant notation does not even have episemas I think. What I could do instead, is to replace the horizontal episemas with two punctums instead of one punctum per syllable on syllables that seem to be held for longer than the others.

    Yes, the 15th century spanish melody for "Therefore We, Before Him Bending" (Tantum Ergo) in the "1940 Hymnal" is a melody I enjoy and seems to fit the joy of the birth of Our Lord which is why I used it for the Circumcision Hymn (which is the Octave of the Nativity), but why use it for martyrs hymns? Why use the same melody for so many trochaic tratrameter catalytics when there are other melodies to use?

    Perhaps I have an irrational prejudice against mode V melodies for martyrs hymns.

    Is there a concensus that the melody I selected is not ideal, or is it only the odd rhtyhmic symbols that are the disliked?

    Perhaps we are all too subjective in our preferences, myself included, is there any rational reason to use one melody over another, other than amount of time it takes to learn new melodies. I certainly don't want to use a melody which seems odd, but nor do I want to be a people pleaser.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    Please note...

    We sing a few Dominican Hymns and we usually ignore the Quarter bars. We have been told they are not traditionally breath marks...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    Is there a concensus that the melody I selected is not ideal, or is it only the odd rhtyhmic symbols that are the disliked?


    I'm puzzled at the overwrought reaction too. The quarter bars are so "barbaric"! :-)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    If I didn't know better (and I'm not saying I do know better) I would assume those quarter bars are nothing but a notation software artifact- either in this score or in the one(s) it is mimicking.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The difficulty with the mode IV melody above is the transcription. Only Solesmes books use the episema (horizontal - indicating whatever you think an episema should be) and the punca mora (dot - lengthening). The other editions of chant (Vatican, Dominican, Sarum, etc., even the pre-restoration Ratisbon/Medici edition) actually use the barlines (and subtleties in the spacing of neums) to indicate lengthening of notes. The problem with the above transcription is that it combines two notational practices in a not very happy way: the barlines of the Domincan books with the episemas of the Solesmes books.

    I have attached two PDF of the first couple lines of this hymn. The first is in 'Dominican' style, the second in 'Solesmes' style. I leave it to readers to decide which they like best.
    St Cecilia Domincan.pdf
    27K
    St Cecilia Solesmes.pdf
    28K
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    Is there a concensus that the melody I selected is not ideal, or is it only the odd rhtyhmic symbols that are the disliked?


    Chris

    Melodies are always a problem here, it all depends on how it is sung. We are a small schola that sing these type of Hymns (only in Latin), so melodies that work well sung by a few people and sound really good, but will sound really bad with congregational singing.

    My objection looking at the type-setting is the quarter bars they really don't make sense, and are confusing.

    Well we intend to sing the original latin sometime so will have a go a setting it to a melody or two. I will post it here, N.B. I have a vast backlog of type-setting so it may be some time.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    I'd be interested in knowing the provenance of the Mode 4 melody. I like the tune very much (although not with the Cecilia text), but it seems not to be chant. It almost feels like it was once notated in 3/4 time.

    The extended sequence of the second musical phrase also seems to be un-chantlike: Do Re Mi Mi Re Do Re Re Do Ti Do Do Ti La Ti
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    Fr Ron, I agree that this melody seems to be a folk song rather than a chant. It is almost Searching for Lambs (Sharp, 1916).
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Here it is with a different melody from the York Use. This is the original melody for "Corde Natus Ex Parentis". At least now it is a bonafide chant melody. At this point I have to move on to other things. If no one objects to this melody I will typeset the whole hymn to this one in both latin and english versions, splitting it in half in 7 verses each, one for lauds, one for vespers/matins.

    My only point was to not use the same melody I always use for this meter. It's amazing how there are about 100 different melodies in Iambic dimeter, yet this Trochaic meter has only about 4 melodies that are usually used ...what an odd contrast.

    image
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Now you've hit a home run. Fine tune.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Chris -
    Not questioning your interesting assertion that this is the original tune for Corde natus... but, what is the source of your information. This really is a fine tune, though I don't think it will replace Corde natus' pairing with Divinum Mysterium: there is a certain magic there. It's certainly better, though, than the rather lackluster mode II one paired with Corde natus in Liber Hymnarius, for which 'they' changed 'Alpha et O cognominatus' to the metrically clumsy 'Alpha et Omega vocatus'.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Chris_McAvoy
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    MJO

    For the older Hymns we have no certain way of knowing the melody used originally, the earliest records with any meaningful notation could be 100s of years after the Hymn was written.

    There are more than a few Hymns with popular melodies, these melodies are far older than the Hymn text. e.g. Veni Creator.

    Melodies are swapped over for a reason, perhaps it could be one of taste. Just because we have an earlier melody does not mean we have to use it. Well, unless we want to sing the melodies in the Liber Hymnarius. The texts therein are either modern compositions or edited versions of the original text.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chris,
    Can you repost your version as a pdf attachment?
    Thanks,
    Charles
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