"Fig-leafing" of texts
  • The honorific "Ms." began to be adopted in the English speaking world in the early 70's. Unlike the 18th century usage (which stood for "mistress"), the contemporary usage is not an abbreviation of a longer title.

    The rise of "Ms." coincides with the emergence of the Feminist movement as a reaction among women activists against male domination of both the anti-war movement and the sexual revolution. What enabled the Feminist movement to enter the mainstream, however, was the massive influx of women - particularly married women - into the workforce in the 1970s and the increase in status resulting from their soaring earning power. Rising divorce rates were also an important contributing factor. (Btw, people these days don't fully appreciate just how oppressive societal norms were in the 50s and 60s for women.)

    In the 60s and 70s, the institution of marriage was still an unchallenged norm in most of American society. Adopting the honorific "Ms." was a way of being more than just a man's wife. But how the worm turns. Today, in America at any rate, marriage increasingly follows class lines. Households with higher incomes and wealth tend to be inhabited by married couples; poorer households tend to be inhabited by the unmarried. Married people are more likely to be healthy, have well-behaved kids who go to "good" schools, live in a "good" neighborhood, and so on. Furthermore, it is now much harder than in the 50s and 60s for a poorer person or household to move up the economic ladder. So now, "Mrs." has some association with economic status, whereas "Ms." is at best neutral.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,724
    I thought "Ms" [sic] was a term for someone who could not make up her mind... Anyway here in the U.K. many people refuse to use "Ms." [sic] and correct it to a proper title when ever we see it.

    I feel very sorry for people who seem unable to understand simple English, and always try to educate them in the correct meaning of many terms.

    Also a question for people who understand this inclusive language [sic.], what do you do with the following words, human, humanity, manufacture, manufacturing, manual, etc.

    Do only men drive manual cars? or only men work in manufacturing?


    EDIT, thanks for the correction Arthur...
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Both "manual" and "manufacture" derive from the latinate term for "hand."

    Man comes from the German side of the language. The male side, I think one might say.
  • tomjaw: I thought "Ms" [sic] was a term for someone who could not make up her mind. According to Wikipedia, "Mx" is the term for someone who cannot make up their mind. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I've spent the last too-many minutes drafting a clever and polite way to say the following, but the number of subordinate clauses and linguistic hedges required is too great, so I will just speak plainly:

    Being of the opinion that "traditional" or "non-inclusive" language is okay or preferable is a valid opinion to hold, as is the opposite opinion. These are matters which are, at least occasionally, worth discussing sensibly.

    But the sexist stupidity and outright obtuseness displayed in some of the above exchanges is sexist, stupid, and outrightly obtuse.
    Thanked by 2JL formeruser
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,775
    If an individual worsdsmith wishes to write by using so-called Inclusive language, surely one can not prevent him

    You've already lost your audience.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I have to agree with Adam. I have never thought that this was an issue worth fighting over, but now that I've seen the attitudes behind the "old ways," I'm not so sure.
    Thanked by 2Liam Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    If an individual worsdsmith wishes to write by using so-called Inclusive language, surely one can not prevent him


    You've already lost your audience.


    This whole issue makes no sense.

    You only notice "inclusive language" when it takes the form of a deliberate alteration of an existing text.

    I've written a number of hymn texts, which have been very well received here on the forum (by people who specifically disagree with my thoughts about inclusive language).

    In not a single one of them have I referred to humanity as "man," or Christians as "sons of God," or anything else remotely similar.

    No one notices my diabolical Orwellian agenda.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Me too neither.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,724
    Both "manual" and "manufacture" derive from the latinate term for "hand."


    I know that, but if a man is educated enough to know the above they should also know that from old English / old German, that Man / Men etc. are referring to both male and female...

    Women are lucky that they have a term specific for them that is still in use, while the term for the male fell out of use.

    The quote below can be found in various English dictionaries,

    "in Old English the principal sense of man was ‘a human being’, and the words wer and wif were used to refer specifically to ‘a male person’ and ‘a female person’ respectively."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • The thing about inclusive language is that it is perfectly alright to use it. Gets dicey though when we start to force other people to use it and attribute to them the attitudes behind the "old ways" when they resist.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    This, Arthur, is an attitude:
    I feel very sorry for people who seem unable to understand simple English, and always try to educate them in the correct meaning of many terms.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I'm not even sure what this is:
    In the 60s and 70s, the institution of marriage was still an unchallenged norm in most of American society. Adopting the honorific "Ms." was a way of being more than just a man's wife. But how the worm turns. Today, in America at any rate, marriage increasingly follows class lines. Households with higher incomes and wealth tend to be inhabited by married couples; poorer households tend to be inhabited by the unmarried. Married people are more likely to be healthy, have well-behaved kids who go to "good" schools, live in a "good" neighborhood, and so on. Furthermore, it is now much harder than in the 50s and 60s for a poorer person or household to move up the economic ladder. So now, "Mrs." has some association with economic status, whereas "Ms." is at best neutral.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • I think tomjaw was kidding. But even if he wasn't, why not just accept what he says at face value: he feels sorry for certain people and wants to help them?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Now I think you're kidding.

    Anyways, this has certainly been informative.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Liam
  • I don't like Ms. because of the way it sounds. Mzzzzzz
    But it's ok when said by a southerner, because then it's not ugly. Even when they're insulting you, it can sound lilting and lovely.

    It could be the inner repressed wild-eyed feminist in me (lol!!) but I detect a problem with the idea that somehow the title Mrs. has a higher dignity than Mzzzzz or Misssss. That's not Church teaching, and it's not based in love for women as our sisters in Christ. That kind of thinking would be untrue and uncharitable, and frankly beneath the dignity of a Christian.

    I happen to be a Mrs., but I think I will go for a doctorate and avoid being called Mzzzz.
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Adam,

    The word "man" is, by its nature, inclusive. In the same way, the French word "femme" can mean both "woman" and "wife". To chose not to use man inclusively for reasons of rhyme, meter, or such similar creative reason would be quite just, and unassailable assuming that the doctrine were preserved. In the same manner, to argue over Holy Spirit/Ghost on theological grounds would be merely to pick an argument for the sake of picking an argument.

    That said, since the conversation began by addressing what the Original Poster called "fig-leafing" texts, the assumption has been that one is trying to cover something of which one is (or should be) embarrassed, namely so-called exclusive language.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you (and some others around here who have noted this) that language is both much richer and more delicate than most people acknowledge.

    What do you make of my observation that alteration of original compositions by someone other than the author is hazardous?

    To those who have been upset with this comment...

    If an individual worsdsmith wishes to write by using so-called Inclusive language, surely one can not prevent him


    perhaps you could explain the problem. "So-called" is an attempt to render "soi-disant" intelligently into English: it calls itself inclusive, and I make no attempt at this juncture to evaluate the accuracy of the language's self-description. "Wordsmith", while sometimes used perjoratively, didn't carry such a meaning in my text. "Him" is a singular pronoun which refers back to wordsmith.

    How did I lose the audience?

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    cgz,

    Sorry, that should have been explained. I don't know if I speak for Adam, but this is where I stopped being as attentive as I might have otherwise:
    Not everything written in the modern era is ugly, but I can't think of something self-consciously written in the modern idiom (or worse yet, the post-modern idiom) which would pass muster as suitable for the worship of Almighty God.

    I wouldn't attempt to rescue the texts, but to reject them.


    Let me post a basically randomly-chosen modern text of mine, so you can see where I come from in my own writing.
    Who is rising in the east
    like the light of many suns?
    Bridegroom coming to the feast:
    eagerly His race He runs.
    Splendor of the rising day,
    reaching out from end to end,
    all creation in his sway—
    and He calls the sinner “friend.”

    Camel through the needle’s eye,
    for our sake becoming poor,
    so the Lord of earth and sky
    enters through a humble door:
    enters through a Virgin womb,
    rises from a borrowed grave.
    So He wills to gently come.
    Powerfully He comes to save.

    He comes forth to be our food
    reigning from the Father’s hand.
    Eat and live: be filled with good.
    Drink, and you will understand.
    Every morning mercies new
    on the altar, grace for grace,
    fall like never-failing dew
    till we see Him face to face.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The word "man" is, by its nature, inclusive. In the same way, the French word "femme" can mean both "woman" and "wife".


    image
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Thank you, Mrs. Wilson. The Church and Christians should welcome everyone regardless of social status (and ontologically does so in as much as she is the body of Christ, even if her members fail). We should make a special effort to welcome those who feel unwelcome, a preferential option so to speak.

    What I posted regarding the contemporary use of "Ms." and "Mrs." is just describing as best I can what I see in the world around me.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,950
    Have you noticed that some who insist on being called Ms. often have three names, or hyphenated names. Why is that? One can not be simply Mary Smith, but has to be Mary Snuffleupagus Smith, or Mary Insufferabilis-Smith. I have decided one can not be a female librarian without at least three names. It seems to work out that way, for reasons I don't understand. Are they that desperate to call attention to themselves? What a bizarre and ridiculous time in which we live.
  • I purposely have four names just to irritate you, CharlesW. MACW is also acceptable since it calls to mind some kind of malicious dinosaur when said out loud, and that is how I usually start the day...

    Kathy, I'm doing my best to be offended or otherwise irked by your texts. It's just not happening for me. Despite my best efforts, I am drawn to recollection. Go figure.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • I probably could have memorized the Offertory "Jubilate Deo" for all the time I've spent commenting. Which is sad because I didn't really add anything to this thin thread.
    Doh! My bad
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,950
    None of that was directed at you, but at people in my own field. It seems to be a prevalent practice in the library world, and I wonder if it is an attention getting device. Guys don't do it, but again, you will never hear a guy say, "John, those shoes don't go with that outfit," either.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    This has been the most ignant thread on the Forum so far, and that is saying something.

    One of many reasons that women keep their maiden names together with their husband's family name has to do with professional accomplishments. If a woman has "made a name" for herself, with a following, for continuity's sake she might want to keep the last name under which her reputation stands.

    On the other hand, Catherine Zeta-Jones was born with a hyphenated name. I don't know if this is library-related.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,950
    In my earlier years, hyphenated names were a British custom, and didn't occur much with folks from other countries. In the British instances, only the last of the hyphenated names was used. For example, Mary Coates-Clark would be addressed as Mrs. Clark, assuming she was married. Today, it seems names have really gotten longer and simply addressing some people requires a mouthful of words.

    I have known women who established careers and professional status before getting married. They kept their maiden names. One told me that using her husband's name would require changing all kinds of legal, insurance, and pension documents. Not worth the trouble.

    Now back to the original topic. I oppose changing texts of established hymns for political correctness and inclusive language. Leave them as they were composed and written. We can all figure out what the hymn writers were trying to say. Newer works, though, don't have to follow earlier conventions. They do, however, need to be understood.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,175
    All this stuff about "Ms." and surnames, entertaining though it be, is a separate topic from the original poster's question.

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Let's face it... Ms. is ruining modern society. We should just ban it, because we DEMAND to know your marital status at first introduction.

    When my wife and I discussed her last-name after we got married, Kathy's point came up. She'd been published under her original last name in more journals than I can count. However, in the end we agreed that my last name was FUN and EXOTIC here in America so she took it with no hyphen.

    Also, its always interesting to see how people address us in formal invitations (to weddings or black/white tie events). Thus far we've received:
    Mr. and Dr M... (flattering though...)
    Dr. and Mr. M... (I think this one is technically correct)
    Drs. M... (they gave me an honorary degree apparently)
    Rev. and Dr. M... (from a protestant who saw a picture of me in cassock & surplice)
  • I oppose changing texts of established hymns for political correctness and inclusive language. Leave them as they were composed and written. We can all figure out what the hymn writers were trying to say. Newer works, though, don't have to follow earlier conventions. They do, however, need to be understood.


    I think that this is the general consensus amongst most musicians.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    "Ms." always makes me think of Major Hardcastle from That Hideous Strength.
  • Yeah, Meloche has a great ring to it.
    My Mr. Fantastic and Exciting Half-Argentine Dreamboat Brilliant Latin Guitarist was not given an exotic name.
    William John Wilson--- what were they thinking? Seriously.

    I felt I couldn't take Wilson without holding on to Carr as a middle name since I was known, at least in SD, and I'd get lost in a sea of Wilsons. So there you have it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,175
    Since everyone in Spanish-speaking countries has two surnames (the father's, followed by the mother's), it seems to be OK with the Church. Why, even Cardinals come with such names: e.g., the cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera has Cañizares from his father and Llovera from his mother.

    It's just a custom, but a chivalrous custom to preserve the mother's family name, and a little more chivalry wouldn't hurt our culture.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Well, re Chonak's observation, Spanish has rather few surnames to go around: which increases the attractiveness, in that language, of using the mother's name as well as the father's. E.g. Picasso was, strictly speaking, Ruiz y Picasso; General Franco was, strictly speaking, Franco y Bahamonde.

    And let's not forget good old Cavaillé-Coll, part-Spanish by origin.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,724
    The Swiss also have a tradition that keeps the maiden name. I am married to a Swiss, so my wife's maiden name was added as a suffix to mine, to give Windsor-Brem. This does not pass to our children who just have my name.

    This is very handy in the village my wife is from which has a whole road of people with the surname Brem!

    hyphenated names were a British custom


    In my experience as a British National, this custom only applied to a small section of the middle class. The upper class still use their ancient customs with names, that are far to confusing to explain... The lower classes did not care enough to hyphenate names which have also been a staple of ridicule for second rate comedians.

    With changing attitudes to marriage (or not) those that would have hyphenated their name now do not get married, the same goes for those that object to the title Mrs. "Ms" is now little more than an alternative for Miss.

    Here in Britain the "Ms" title is also used as a term of ridicule.