Random and useless curiosity re: Anglican Use
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    1. Could a "regular" parish ever use the new Anglican Use?
    a) On a special occasion.
    b) As a regularly scheduled Sunday Mass.

    2. Could a "regular" priest celebrate a Mass in the Anglican Use?
    a) On a special occasion.
    b) On a regular schedule.

    3. Could a "regular" Catholic lay person attend an Anglican Use Mass regularly as their usual Sunday obligation?

    4. What calendar do the Ordinariates follow?

    Just curious.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass [CIC Can. 1248 §1].


    Sounds like the answer to no. 3 above. Catholics are free to attend any rite of the Catholic Church.

    BTW, if there is ever an Anglican Use parish established in my area, I will throw myself on the floor and beg them to hire me.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Adam
    1. A parish can use the new Ordinariate rite if the priest is a member of the Ordinariate or perhaps if the parish is an Ordinariate parish.

    2. He could ask his bishop / or the Ordinary of the local Ordinariate.

    3. YES!

    4. A modification of the new Roman Calendar to make it more like the Traditional Roman Calendar. i.e. Septuagesima / Ember days / counting time after Epiphany / Trinity
    Below is the Ordo for the Ordinariate in England, which I believe is more Traditionally minded than the U.S. version.

    http://www.ordinariate.org.uk/document.doc?id=80
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    What was that famous Fr. Rutler quote he uttered after attending an Anglican (pre-Ordinariate) Mass decades ago, "It was lovely to hear the Mass sung in English again."? That quip was always a favorite as he obviously was jesting about the banality of the 1970 RM.
    I would suppose that, in Adam's original post, he meant "could a diocesan/ordered PRIEST...." not parish. Well, by common sense, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ., can licitly preside over the Syriac Rite, so......
    I wonder if the real issue at stake is whether such a concern would be deliterious to congregants who are finally awakening to the deeper changes in MR3, such as the prefaces and collects? And, of course, there are the detractors who openly are mocking the "thee/thou" counts in the AO rites while associating same with charges of so-called "Cranmerisms."
  • BGP
    Posts: 219
    • 1. Could a "regular" parish ever use the new Anglican Use?
    An Anglican use priest could say an Anglican use Mass at a ‘regular’ parish (in my diocese the small AU community uses a regular parish for their services) but a regular parish can’t just decide it’s going to start using it.
    • 2. Could a "regular" priest celebrate a Mass in the Anglican Use?
    No, I don’t think so, it may be possible for one to do it for an AU community uncertain about that.
    3. Could a "regular" Catholic lay person attend an Anglican Use Mass regularly as their usual Sunday obligation?
    YES absolutly- but they cannt become official 'members' of the ordinariate
    4. What calendar do the Ordinariates follow?
    their own- http://frstephensmuts.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/calendar-and-sanctorale-for-ordinariate-of-the-chair-of-st-peter-published/
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    Thanks all.

    I wonder if there could be some parallels made to other Catholic (non-Roman) Rites. The overall gist of my question is: how permeable are the various Catholic rites? I understand a lay person can attend any of them and fulfill their obligation. How difficult/possible/impossible is it for parishes belonging to one rite to get permission to offer another, or for priests to obtain faculties for a rite other than their native one?
    And what benefits accrue to being a member of the Ordinariate that would not accrue to a "regular" Roman Rite Catholic who attends every Sunday?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    I'm really just idly curious. (Or day dreaming, I guess). I don't see any practical application for this.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    It is possible to transfer from one rite to another, but you better like where you are going because it is nearly impossible to reverse the decision. My eastern church deals with this often. It requires a letter asking permission to change rites to both the Latin and the eastern bishop. If the Latin bishop approves, generally the eastern one will. It is easier to get permission to transfer from a large rite into a much smaller one than the reverse. Never tell either bishop you want to transfer because you hate where you are. You likely won't be given permission. An appeal based on your compatibility with the spirituality of the rite to which you want to transfer works best.

    Bi-ritual faculties for a priest requires the consent of both bishops. Celebrating the rites of my eastern church requires seminary courses related to eastern practices and spirituality. Also, courses in learning the liturgy. From time to time, a priest will seek bi-ritual faculties who is learned enough to not need much additional education.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood BruceL
  • 1. Could a "regular" parish ever use the new Anglican Use?
    a) On a special occasion. YES, BUT FOR A DISTINCT REASON, NOT JUST GENERAL INTEREST
    b) As a reularly scheduled Sunday Mass. NO. THESE LITURGIES ARE INTENDED FOR SEPARATELY ORGANIZED CONGREGATIONS. SOME OF THESE MAY HOLD THEIR LITURGIES IN ANOTHER PARISH'S BUILDING, BUT IT WOULD NOT BE A REGULAR PARISH MASS OF THE HOST

    2. Could a "regular" priest celebrate a Mass in the Anglican Use?
    a) On a special occasion. IF GIVEN FACULTIES. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE FOR A STRONG REASON, PROBABLY ONLY TO ASSIST FOR A SPECIAL OCCASION AT AN AU PARISH
    b) On a regular schedule. THIS WOULD BE RARE. THE ORDINARIATE HAS MORE PRIESTS THAN CONGREGATIONS. IF AN AU CONGREGATION WAS WITHOUT A PRIEST, A DIOCESAN PRIEST MIGHT CELEBRATE AS AN INTERIM. IN MOST PLACES, THE LINES BETWEEN ORDINARIATE CLERGY, DIOCESAN CLERGY, AND THE TWO ENGLISH VERNACULAR USES ARE KEPT QUITE DISTINCT AT EVERY LEVEL.

    3. Could a "regular" Catholic lay person attend an Anglican Use Mass regularly as their usual Sunday obligation? YES. CATHOLICS CAN ATTEND ANY LICIT MASS ON ANY DAY.

    4. What calendar do the Ordinariates follow? THE ORDINARIATES' CALENDARS ARE MODELED ON THE PAULINE MISSAL, WITH ADDITIONS TO THE SANCTORALE OF SAINTS TRADITIONALLY VENERATED IN BRITAIN
  • Additionally: a good number of Ordinariate priests do a substantial amount of work--Masses, administration, etc.--to assist their local dioceses. Some dioceses have a strict policy, however, against Ordinariate priests serving in formal roles such as parochial vicar, even when the Ordinariate can't provide them employment. The military archdiocese has made very good use of Ord priests already. This is all extremely new. The settled, long-term patterns are just not there yet.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    I also wonder about kids growing up in an Ordinariate parish. Would a boy baptized into the Catholic Church, in the Anglican Use, and formed in the Anglican Use, be eligible to become a priest in that Rite? Could he be married?
    What if a married Anglican man converted and became a member of the Ordinariate. Could he become a priest?

    And is anyone officially thinking about all this?
  • For those who are not aware -
    The ordinariate now has a new order of mass replacing the BDW. It is the work of a commission of British, Canadian, Australian, American and Vatican members. There isn't a great deal of difference, but there are some significant ones. There was greater influence of Sarum, BCP's other than the American '29 one, The English Missal and The American Missal (Anglo-Catholic books with heavy Sarum influence). This use will be common to all Anglican ordinariates throughout the world. One major structural change is the moving of the Peace to the current Roman position rather than the 'Byzantine' one before the offertory. One may also note (sadly) that 'Ghost' has been replaced by 'Spirit' except in Gloria and the creed.

    Details about the kalendar have been noted by others above.

    Any Catholic may attend our masses, and may petition to join an ordinariate parish.

    We occasionally have visiting Roman rite priests celebrate using our use. What faculties have been granted for this I don't know, but, presumably they could not do this in their own parishes.

    Adam - only Anglicans who are already Anglican priests and are already married can become Catholic priests. Otherwise the rule of celibacy of the Roman rite applies to all. In fact, we have had a goodly number of celibate Anglican priests join our ranks.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    "Regular" priests sub in for our pastor on occasion, yes, singing the AU Mass.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    MJO: Have you all switched over to the new ritual books?
    And are all the "pastoral provision" parishes now under the purview of the Ordinariate?
  • No, not all of the Anglican Use parishes (pastoral provision/Book of Divine Worship) parishes are within the Ordinariate, most notably Our Lady of the Atonement (San Antonio) and Saint Athanasius (Boston). This is only a US issue: there were no Anglican Use congregations in Britain or Australia before Anglicanorum Coetibus and the announcement of the Ordinariates.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    If I understand aright, most Roman-rite Catholics are not permitted to transfer to the Ordinariate, though they may attend an Ordinariate parish as often as they like.

    This CNA story in July says that Pope Francis expanded the norms so that any Catholic not yet confirmed may transfer to the Ordinariate: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-says-catholics-seeking-confirmation-can-join-anglican-ordinariate/

    Have you all switched over to the new ritual books?

    Have they been published yet?
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Since we are on a music forum, I will also interject that the new AU parishes are going to need organists and conductors, so be on the lookout for these opportunities, since not all musicians from the former Anglican communities choose to become Catholic and part of the new Catholic parishes formed from them. At Our Lady of the Atonement, which has been going for 30 years now (an archdiocesan, not Ordinariate parish), we just hired a new assistant organist at the parish and choral music teacher at the school last spring. I know from reading the forums that many Catholics conduct and/or play the organ at Anglican (proper)/Episcopalian parishes; I invite you on behalf of our fellow Catholics and co-religionists in the AU parishes to consider us first, for we share the same Catholic faith as you.

    "Faith of our fathers, holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death."
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • From what I understand, one may use "Holy Ghost" if it is part of the musical setting - ie so we don't have to make awkward alterations to the texts of music to force them to fit the official new texts.

    It is often quite useful to have the option of saying "Holy Ghost" when writing a doxology for a hymn tune.

    8.7.8.7 (From "Firmly I Believe and Truly" by JH Newman)
    "Praise and thanks be ever given
    with and through th'angelic host
    to the God of Earth and Heaven
    Father, Son and Holy Ghost."

    8.6.8.6
    "Then let us praise the Father and
    let us praise the Son
    and let us praise the Holy Ghost,
    eternal Three-and-One."
  • I would like to make a claim into the ordinariate since my family was mostly Anglican (and some Methodist) until about 1955. One of my ancestors worked for the Royal Family.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I believe we can say holy ghost whenever we want. We just have to use the approved text when there is one.
  • Ben is really right! We can only say Holy Ghost whenever we please. There was, in fact, one of those 'local custom' clauses attached.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    My parish is named Holy Ghost. As the former pastor always said, "We can't change the name of the church!" We say "Holy Ghost" a lot.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    What if a married Anglican man converted and became a member of the Ordinariate. Could he become a priest?


    Yes. Our parish priest is a member of the ordinariate, although he celebrates Mass according to the Latin Rite. He is also married with children. Our diocese has more than one such priest. I can't speak for others, but IMO it's been wonderful for our parish. In more than terms of music (although that is steadily improving). The reverence with which he celebrates the Mass is extremely consoling.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    Wendi-
    your response wasn't clear to me.
    I was specifically curious about an Anglican lay man, married, who converted with a parish prior to becoming ordained in an Anglican church. Assuming he remains fully within the Anglican Ordinariate structure... could he be ordained then?

    I assume not. (?)
    Though it could present a sort of interesting dilemma for a disillusioned Anglican seminarian. ("Wait, wait! I can't convert until I get fake-ordained!")
  • Adam -
    The answer is 'no'.
    Already married as an Episcopal priest is the only way to become a married Catholic priest. Other ordinariate members who wish to enter holy orders will be celibate. And, we do have an appreciable number of celibate priests who were celibate as Episcopalians.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    I figured that was the case.
    Thanks for confirming.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Oh sorry...I misunderstood your question. I thought you were referring to a married Anglican priest who converted. My bad.
  • I'll bet that Francis (not ours - the other one) would be open to accepting single men who marry after ordination, since it is the tradition among Anglicans to accept this. And it would provide then a wonderful opportunity then for RC priests to go Anglican Use and marry.

    Makes no sense to invest the money and time educating a priest and then drop him because of an RC tradition when he realizes that he is incomplete and dissatisfied as a person to remain celibate.

    In business speak this is much better ROI.

    Is there a chance that he and Benedict conspired before B's election, B saying: "Ok, I take the first term, get them ready for you to step in and open the doors to letting RC's move over instead of dropping out." ?

    God knows, it would make sense.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    I cannot tell if you are joking or serious...
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  • So F and BXVI are a "Good Pope, Bad Pope" tag team?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Since the start of the pontificate of Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), exceptions may be allowed for married Protestant ministers or Anglican clergy who convert to Catholicism and wish to become priests in the Catholic Church, provided their wives consent.

    I know one such married priest who converted from the LCMS.
  • No Orthodox or Catholic priests have ever been allowed to marry after ordination: any rite, any jurisdiction. A very significant number of us in the Ordinariates would not have anything to do with a jurisdiction that allowed this.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    >>A very significant number of us in the Ordinariates would not have anything to do with a jurisdiction that allowed this.
    I'm curious why, if married priests are acceptable, the chronological order is of such importance.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    In the east, a married man can be ordained a priest. If a man is ordained first, he can not marry. Usually, unmarried priests are monastics. Only unmarried priests are eligible to become bishops, which is why the vast majority are monastics. A married priest is never eligible to be a bishop. That is tradition going back to the Church Fathers.
  • Precisely because of the pattern CharlesW outlines. Also, the exceptions for married Anglican clergy are temporary expedients. The flow of these men will become a trickle in the next few years, for many and good reasons.
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    "It's never been done" does not explain why it is considered problematic.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    It has never been done because it reflects teachings of the Church and Desert Fathers. Tradition is a gift of the Holy Ghost to be treasured and preserved. If it doesn't fit within Tradition, it is problematic. If the tradition doesn't fit, you must desist. ;-)
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    We should remember that holy orders includes both priesthood (presbyterate and episcopate) and the diaconate. So, when M. Osborn says that other ordinariate members who wish to enter holy orders shall remain celibate, I am quite sure he is not ruling out the possibility of married men becoming deacons? Unless Monsignor Steenson, Ordinary of the Chair of St. Peter, has already decided he does not want permanent deacons?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    CW, and whoever down-voted my comment above, misunderstand the nature of my question.

    "It's never been done" is a perfectly good reason for not suddenly deciding to do something. But it doesn't explain why it has never been done. The elaboration offered is akin to, "it's illegal because there's a law against it."

    I am curious what the reason or justification is behind the tradition that a married man may get ordained, but that an ordained man may not get married.
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Not responsible for the vote. Wasn't me.

    In the east, bishops are not married because they are monastics, almost without exception. My own bishop is a monastic. Monastics don't marry. Married priests are more like the Latin diocesan clergy.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I think we can all think of some problems and scandals that could arise with bachelor-dating-clerics.
  • "First sacrament" is a principle in force among Roman Rite deacons, as well. My father was ordained a deacon in 2004, though if my mother passes away, he will not be allowed to remarry.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW BruceL
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Now you've got me curious as well Adam. I understand the commonsense reason that a "dating priest" could cause problem and scandal, but are there deeper reasons as well?
  • Serious as a wood baseball bat.
    I think we can all think of some problems and scandals that could arise with bachelor-dating-clerics.


    You've got to be kidding me. It's better to have them dealing with sexual desire by going after children rather than the normal male-female adult relationship that God seems to have intended?
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    This is nutty, to say the least, to suggest that a cleric (or anyone) who is unable to control his sexual urges for women will automatically go after children.

    I usually respect your postings, Frogman. This one I disagree with vehemently. Seminarians are trained in spiritual mastery when in the seminary. Unfortunately, our liberal and anti-Catholic media has spread the lie that because most candidates for sacred priesthood cannot marry, they are by that nature prone to abuse children. They do not understand that the Church understands that men (and women) are more capable of disciplining themselves and striving for good things; the media and society think of people as nothing other than sex toys unable to control their urges (just think about how often condoms are proposed as a means to stop HIV/AIDS). The Church, however, sees people as being made in the image and likeness of God, that they are capable of sexual mastery. This does not imply sex is evil; no, celibacy is a loving sacrifice to God precisely because of the goodness of what is sacrificed.

    While I do not know the reason why the rule developed that clerics (priests and deacons) may not marry after ordination, I can see that there is wisdom in that rule. Imagine you are a woman in a parish. Would you like your pastor hitting on you? Also, a person who is romantically involved with her pastor may not receive sound counsel if she comes to him for help by reason that the priest may not be able to think objectively, and maybe not see a sin a woman is struggling with as such. In like fashion, a patient who is involved with a physician may not receive proper help.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Noel, that's an irrelevant question: marriage is not a cure for perversity. See Penn State.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Adam, the priest is given over in an act of consecration to become an icon of Christ, for the salvation of all mankind; having done that, it's inappropriate for him to take himself back up and dispose himself into a less universal form of self-giving.

    If the subject interests you from a historical point of view, you might want to read Fr. Cochini's "Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy" (Ignatius).

    In canon law, professor Ed Peters has shown that the norm for Latin clergy, even deacons, is continence: i.e., abstinence from marital relations, although this norm is widely unknown, and not taught, and disregarded. (But don't panic, married clergy: married clergy who were not taught about this obligation are by that fact exempted from it, so it seems.)

    This norm is why the consent of a deacon candidate's wife is required for ordination: it implies that she is being asked to relinquish her marital rights.

    The principle of abstinence from marital relations even appears in the East, where married priests engage in temporary abstinence.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    In the east, bishops are not married because they are monastics, almost without exception. My own bishop is a monastic. Monastics don't marry. Married priests are more like the Latin diocesan clergy.

    They're all monastics because they all become monastics before becoming bishops if they are not already. But they are sometimes unmarried because they are widowers, not because they never married, like the new OCA bishop of Alaska. In some jurisdictions they will also ordain unmarried men as secular clergy, who can then be elected to the episcopacy and take monastic tonsure as a result, but this is rare. But, especially in days of shorter lifespans and women dying in childbirth, widowed bishops was not, I think. (Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow was actually briefly married and then divorced.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    Fascinating....
    I have such mixed feelings about married clergy. Probably the same mixed feelings the Church has, I sometimes think.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I have encountered the occasional widower, but they are not common.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,478
    (Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow was actually briefly married and then divorced.)

    is outrage?
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