Yes, unbearably sad. In this age of ecclesial identity crisis, I often think of the "sense of the faithful", and how many have turned away from the Church feeling confused or abandoned by the changes. How patient God must be.



All the silliness (and of course the Church has had major silliness in other times) leads me to a deeper faith: basically the Holy Spirit must truly be in charge or the human errors would have fully destroyed the Church long, long ago...

Then I wonder: what is my part in it? No parish, let alone the mundane workings of the Church, will function perfectly with the likes of me in it. It makes me ever grateful for God's mercy. :)

EF or OF

If you're talking about the EF, it is actually not exactly kosher to sing the Ordinary at a Low Mass.

The Low Mass, or Missa Lecta, lit. "a read Mass", also known as a Missa Recitiva, a "recited Mass", and as a Missa Privata, lit. a mass "deprived" of music, is a Mass at which the priest recites all the parts the rubrics assign to him, and the ordinary is recited by the congregation and altar boys in response. Hymns, motets or antiphons may be sung during a Low Mass at the Offertory and Communion and as opening and recessional hymns, even hymns in the vernacular during Mass if desired. The propers may not be sung at a Low Mass.

The High Mass, or Missa Cantata, the "sung Mass", is a Mass at which the priest sings all the parts the rubrics assign to him, and the ordinary and propers are sung by the choir and congregation.

According to the legislation governing the use of the Extraordinary Form, it is not allowed to mix elements from the Missa Lecta and Missa Cantata in a type of "hybrid Mass" where, for example, the priest recites his parts and the congregation or choir sing the Ordinary, or any other such configuration.

Hope this helps. There is much more information here: http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/lowmass.pdf

to sing ordinaries at a Low Mass
. . .
I'm guessing the Creed is out

In addition to what has been remarked above, this is strictly forbidden. The only options are (1) sing the entire ordinary, proper, and everything else (dialogues, Pater Noster, etc.; or (2) sing none of it. In the second case you can sing hymns (in Latin or English), provided that they are not translations or approximations of the ordinary or proper.

There's no liturgical rule against singing the Ordinary and Proper at EF Low Mass, regardless of how you define "Low Mass".

In general, you can start the Kyrie at any time, generally after the opening hymn if there is no Introit. A nice time to start the Kyrie is after the Indulgentiam. Depending on Father's style (how much he likes to say certain things audibly, or in dialog with the congregation, or make use of the vernacular option), you can keep singing for a while...perhaps even through the Epistle. If you find time running out, you can always switch to recto tono. Sorry to be vague about the timing, but each Kyrie is different in length, and priests also know how to expand and contract certain parts.

The Gloria is really awkward at Low Mass unless Father intones, in which case the Mass becomes a sung Low, and Father would probably go sit with the servers and bow and also sing some of the other dialogues. The Creed is less awkward but it's still awkward. Technically it is licit to have a chorister intone the incipit of both, but I've never seen it.

Yes, it would be a wonderful idea to talk to Father beforehand.

That's the thing with the EF these days, that people are usually only exposed to it in one locality, and they believe that their own local experience occurs everywhere, whereas before the Council there was a great variety...Italian organ Masses and Viennese orchestral Masses and Irish quickie Masses and so forth.

Well, for the record, I have been to 3 other (non-FSSP) parishes that celebrated the EF in my state (AZ), as well as one in CA, another in CO, and yet another in Rome...all were the same as I was familiar with at my home parish, though to be fair, the CA/CO/Rome parishes were also FSSP parishes.

There's no liturgical rule against singing the Ordinary and Proper at EF Low Mass, regardless of how you define "Low Mass".

It's now very clear that "Chrism" is a troll. Based on the casuistry he exhibits, he could be even worse--a Jesuit-educated troll.

7 is not a very large sample. Someone went to a local Novus Ordo parish recently and thought it was strangely un-Catholic that they sang Latin, didn't have altar girls, and the boys wore black and white. She'd never seen that before, thought it was some kind of cult.

I wasn't intending it to imply a large sample, rather just my experience. Also, I am not sure what your scenario has to do with my post at all.

Welcome to the forum, Lee!

It's not unusual that people hear the term "low Mass with music" and wonder what it could legitimately be. That's how it seemed to me too when I first heard of it in the 1990s in Boston at the church where the old Mass was offered. It seemed strange that there would be a low Mass with the major parts of the Mass Ordinary sung. Going by the documents -- notably 1958's De musica sacra, such a combination is excluded. If anything of the propers or ordinary were sung, it would all have to be sung. Nobody disputes that the documents say this, as far as I know.

On the other hand, I knew people in that parish who had lived through the 1950s and '60s and had been servers, choir members, or organists, and they were all agreed that there had been such a thing as a "low Mass with music", with hymns, a sung choral Mass Ordinary, and maybe a motet or two, but no sung propers and no singing from the priest. For all I know, it may have been totally legit prior to 1958. In any case, the practice continued afterward with the consent of the clergy.

In the '90s, with the revival of the old form of Mass, the "low Mass with music" was resumed in some places too, so don't be surprised if you come across it in practice at some point. (The Holy See doesn't seem to mind; they're leaving music issues up to local decision. Once the Ecclesia Dei commission even referred an inquirer to contact us at CMAA for advice!)

I hope this helps to provide an answer.

--Richard Chonak
(forum admin, CMAA webmaster)

Going by the documents -- notably 1958's De musica sacra, such a combination is excluded.

That's really a stretch read. De musica sacra is silent on the topic, so some people take it to be an exhaustive list of all musical possibilities, which it doesn't explicitly claim to be.

Check out De musica sacra, 14b. It says the faithful may participate directly in a Low Mass by reciting the responses and the ordinary and by singing hymns. If you check out the link I gave above there's more in a pdf in which Fr. Haynes of St. John Cantius in Chicago gives guidelines for music at a low mass according to the 1962 Missale Romanum. This information also corresponds exactly with B Andrew mills book, a CMAA publication.

De musica sacra, 14b. It says the faithful may participate directly in a Low Mass by reciting the responses and the ordinary and by singing hymns.

Right, and this was one of the important parts of De musica sacra, the establishment of the Dialogue Mass, which was widely implemented at the time but is not universal among the post-conciliar EF communities. For example, Lee_Cunningham, above, is only familiar with silent Low Mass. There are other forms of music at Low Mass, including choral and instrumental. FWIW, I am also told the term "recitare" in Latin can mean both sing and say.

Fr. Haynes and Mr. Mills have written great books, but they didn't source this part to any actual Church legislation. It's how things work in their churches, which is good for them. But it is not binding everywhere. As best I can figure they have based their guideline on a passage from Fortescue, something along the lines of "at Low Mass there is no music", which refers to how the servers and sacred ministers should behave at Low Mass - i.e., there is no liturgical choir to wait for or to bow with.

Before the Council, practices were more uniform.

I'm told they were uniform(ly bad) at many territorial parishes in American dioceses, but there was a wide variety at the ethnic parishes. And there were variations diocese-to-diocese based on local German-ness versus Irish-ness. Once in a while you found a gem.

Some of these "EF" parishes are like little Baptist churches. They are all doing their own thing and making whatever interpretations they like.

Very true. One has to hope that the local interpretations are made, at least, in good faith.

this laissez faire attitude to De musica sacra

If you want to back off the anathema a bit, you might recognize that the document is calling for progressive stages of lay participation in the words of the Mass, first this, then that. The principle being laid down by 14b, and the details in paragraphs 28-34, e.g.:

31. A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him.

The stage of progression has universally been thought to be at the guidance of the local priest.

Where I've seen Low Mass with Music, the complaints have been that it resembles too much a Dialogue Mass, rather than too little.

I don't believe many allowances were made in it for local variation.

In general, local custom is modified by law but not abolished unless it is contrary to the law or the law states that custom is abolished. So, there is a limitation placed on the local custom of organ Masses in 29, even though the document does not mention organ Masses elsewhere, nor are organ Masses explicitly "tolerated". 29 only affects instrumental music.

From what I understand your two options here are either:

1.) A Low Mass with Hymns and ONLY hymns at the Entrance, Offertory, Communion and a Recessional. In this scenario, you may chose to sing "Hail to the Lord's Anointed"; "We, Three Kings"; "The First Noel" and "O Come, All Ye Faithful"

2.) A Missa Cantata, where you must sing all of the ordinary and propers, even if some are only sung to psalm-tones or even recto-tono (not ideal, but often done). The only permitted vernacular music here is a Processional Hymn, which must be immediately followed by the Introit and a Recessional Hymn after the dismissal. You can sing Latin hymns after the Offertory and Communion antiphons. "Adeste Fideles" and "Jesu Dulcis Memoria" come to mind for the Christmas Season, and the vernacular hymns may be "Hail to the Lord's Anointed" and "We, Three Kings."

That is my overall assessment. I am prepared to stand corrected if anything above is not correct. I don't claim a nihil obstat.

You could legitimately have the organ play during most of low Mass. The ICKSP does this during most of their low Masses that are not on ferial days. It has the added advantage/disadvantage of giving aggressive progressives heart palpitations.

My solution to the quandary presented here is this: I play chant melodies (ordinary or proper, as the time in the mass proposes) but no singing of anything. (When I first heard of "Low Mass with Organ" and "Low Mass with Hymns", I found myself wondering if the ideas weren't satire, but let that pass.)

After the consecration, for example, I might play a section from the Dies Irae, since it is at that point in the Mass when we pray in a unique way for the departed.

I have taken to playing the melody of the Alleluia while Father processes from the altar to the pulpit -- suggesting a continuity of idea.

Thanks for the welcome chonak (and others)! And no need to worry about me getting overly distraught over typical forum-speak, as while I may be a new member here, I have tens-of-thousands of posts elsewhere, and am no means new to forums in general. :P

Which AZ parishes have you visited?

Mater Misericordiae Mission has been my home parish for about a decade now, but among the other EF Masses (in AZ) that I have been to are: St Catherine's (Phoenix), Holy Family (Tucson), and to another in Tucson, but alas I forget the name, however it was where Fr. Rego was before his death. I guess you could also add All Saints, St. Thomas the Apostle and the San Xavier Mission if you wanted, but they were just places that the MMM priests celebrated the EF as well, so I didn't count them in the tally previously.

It would seem that the church was set against mixing the two forms. So either one sung all the parts that needed to be sung, or one did not sing those parts in any combination.* Hence, there was a need to divide the Missa Cantatain the letter Musicam sacramfollowing the reforms of the 2nd Vatican Council so that one could sing more parts of the Mass during the week as well as more parts, previously silent or recited, on Sunday. That is what we have now, a Low Mass with sung Ordinary in most American parishes.

No one, I think, argues that one's experience in 2015 at a particular parish of the usus antiquioris definitive of anyone else's experience, whether in this time, in another place, or in another time and place altogether. That does not really affect the liturgical law applied in 2015. Precious few places can claim the custom of singing the congregational singing of the Ordinary at an otherwise read Mass. If a bishop consents to submit a dubium, one could ask the PCED to rule on the matter. But all things considered, a good reading of De musica sacra is the typical one: no singing the Ordinary at Low Mass. The FSSP and the ICRSP are the two largest institutes using the traditional Mass. Both have their own practices, each of which tickles my sensibilities to varying degrees. This is a good thing, since local practices ought to be considered, when they are at least neutral and even beneficial. (My favorite is probably when English priests turn at Orate, fratres and don't stop in the middle.) However, neither to my knowledge promotes or even tolerates the Ordinary being sung at Low Mass. Ergo, I suspect they would advance the same argument, that the Ordinary being sung is too disruptive and confusing.

*That is subject to two qualifiers. The Epistle and Gospel, according to a 1960 instruction of the SRC, may be recited at Missa Cantata. I do not like that instruction one bit, but it is allowed. What is more preferable in that case is for the priest to sing recto tono since the Epistle has historically been sung that way and work his way up to the proper melodies for both. I think that is it, and there are no changes, as far as I know, that would allow for a simpler Solemn High Mass. (I've heard of indults for Solemn High Masses without chant...yeah right, considering the Archdiocese of Boston was told by the SRC to suppress this in the 1930s).. Further, there is, as De musica sacrainstructs, the reciting the Ordinary, the Propers, and the responsive prayers and the signing of other music at Low Mass to foster greater participation of the people. Plus the organ usage...

By the way, the restrictions on the organ at Low Mass don't apply to High Mass. This is another indication of the divisions between the two forms. The seasonal ones and the ones for the liturgies of the dead do, of course, but one can improvise say during the Canon (which one should only do if they are a very good improviser...) at High Mass but it's forbidden at Low Mass.

I've gone on long enough for now...