Vatican II Hymnal
  • meg
    Posts: 2
    Our pastor wants me to research an all-inclusive hymnal for our parish. I've been trying to get a copy of Vatican II so we can look at it ---- where do I fine it?!!
    Thanks.
  • JPike1028
    Posts: 95
    http://www.ccwatershed.org/vatican/
  • meg
    Posts: 2
    Thank you --- but that just says it's not available.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    They have PDFs of the SATB vocal scores and the Table of Contents though, that should give you a little info. I bought a copy of the pew book at the Colloquium, it is beautifully done, though I think a more subdued cover might be better. (Methinks they might be going into a second edition.)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    just says it's not available

    In fact, it says:
    The Vatican II Hymnal (Pew Book) is not available at this time.
    Please stay tuned for a very exciting announcement.

    Does this mean that we are about to be subjected treated to a Vatican II(ii) Hymnal already, after only a couple of years? Of course, planned obsolescence sensible revision is part of the modern publishing model always welcome.

    (Just having fun with you, Jeff. I look forward to a 2nd edition.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Since the Campion second edition came out already, perhaps JMO has been working on the Vatican II Hymnal II, with more conventional hymn layouts and perhaps a new cover.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    conventional hymn layouts


    Never surrender, PoJo!

    perhaps a new cover


    Ok, I think that would be a good idea.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I vetoed that hymnal purchase over the hymn layouts, and the small quantity of hymns. I am willing to take another look at it if those change. It's been awhile since I looked at it. Were there Propers in it, too? Seems like I thought Propers belonged in a choir edition, not the pew edition. I wasn't concerned about the cover so much.
    Thanked by 2Richard Mix Steve Q
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Charles, They have only the texts of the propers (using the translation in the 1990 Gregorian Missal) so that the people know what the choir is singing in Latin.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Thanks, I only had a preview copy that I returned to someone. I didn't trust my memory on that. I only use English Propers, so the people can hear what the choir is singing.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    A second edition… I've been thinking of the same thing, with ideas/suggestions/hopes nearly identical to those mentioned here. And maybe another one — what about naming it after a saint? Something like "St. Someone Hymnal (or Hymnal and Missal) — a second edition of the Vatican II Hymnal."
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    There are several very good hymns which should go into the Vatican II hymnal, but I suppose that the trouble with most hymnals is that they are designed primarily around the Sunday Mass.

    A good hymnal would also have hymns for various Feasts and Solemnities through the year. For example, "The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came" is one which should also be included for the Annunciation, and also finds use during an Advent Carols and Christmas Carols.

    "Help of Christians Guard this Land" is another good one (written by an Australian Composer) which should make it's way into any good collection of Marian Hymns.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Mark M.,

    The name Vatican II Hymnal ought to remain. It places the "burden of proof" on anyone who thinks its contents are NOT aligned with the council's vision, instead of leaving DM's debating with "progressives" in their parishes who argue for the "spirit" of the council. The contents are, to us, obviously in line with the mind of the church. Rather than argue that point while promoting a Saint Namesake Hymnal and quoting a host of conciliar & papal writings that progressives won't read, why not keep calling it the Vatican II Hymnal and let them comb the documents to prove why they think it is not what the council wanted? Maybe they'll even learn something in the process.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'll buy that. :) (What about, though, a soon-to-be "St. John XXIII" Hymnal, or St. JP2? Then again, it might be a bit confusing to associate the Missal of St. John XXIII with one form, and a hymnal of St. John XXIII with another.)
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I never thought trying to make a political point with the title of the hymnal was a wise idea. (I know, when I compile my own hymnal I'm free to choose whatever title I want.) It seems like it would be harder to sell an on-the-fence pastor on something like this where the very title is tendentious. And on the other hand, I wonder how many people there are who have passed it over, thinking, "Who wants a hymnal with all stuff from the '60s and '70s?"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I have to agree that the title is "loaded" with all kinds of associations. Those of us who post here likely see it the way it was intended. Others, however, I'm not so sure.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Here's hoping the texts of the propers — including the gradual and the Gregorian alleluia — stay! Gosh, having all of that in there is fantastic.

    Texts from the Graduale, I might add.
    Thanked by 2Ben CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    We use then as well! Proper texts are good!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Vatican II Hymnal.

    I told my friends that it was basically a good hymnal with lots of traditional music given that name to trick trendy sorts into buying it.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I have said, and could always be wrong on this, that the people who designed the Vatican II hymnal essentially did it for themselves. It doesn't appear a broader audience was ever in mind.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Might try the St. Michaels' hymnal, it is a great hymnal.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW francis
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I've said it often enough. My main criticism of most hymnals is that they revolve too much around the Sunday Mass. They should also have music suitable for other celebrations such as for Eucharistic Adoration, various Saint's days and other Feasts and occasions which do not fall on a Sunday and should also definitely include hymns suitable for the Divine Office.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    ...and plenty of material for the honor of the BVM!!
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I like the V-II hymnal very much, including the cover. Especially the cover!

    If there is a second edition in the works, the only thing I would like to see ADDED are resources for devotional practices (sung Rosary and Benediction, the Divine Office, Stations of the Cross etc...)

    Even without those additions it's still a great resource. IMO of course, YMMV.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    While I sympathize with wanting more outside-of-Mass material, most hymnals I've seen are already approaching NYC phone-book size as it is. Then again, if you clear out the Haugen/Haas/Schutte, etc detritus, you could make more room for it.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Of course the other trouble is that we're trying to create a one-size-fits-all solution. In most hymnals, at least half of the music printed is not used by any given parish.
    Thanked by 1veromary
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Has there been any discussion on the organ harmonies for the hymns in this hymnal? I have to say that I love the ability to download them on demand (for free!), but since I've starting using this hymnal more in recent weeks, many of the harmonies have taken me by surprise (my fault for sight reading during the liturgy). I'm all for having alternate harmonies for variations, but why aren't the traditional harmonies included. I can't image those are under copyright (then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they were). In fact some of the harmonies don't seem to work at all. Are these honest typos or is there more to this?
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Torculus jpal
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    EG, I have to agree with you, especially when classics like HYFRYDOL and HYMN TO JOY are replaced with harmonizations that leave much to be desired. On the other hand, NON DIGNUS is a vast improvement, IMHO. There are others as well, but it's a pain clicking through all that on my smartphone. ;-)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I can't speak for others or for Jeff, but I feel that the musical settings which I contributed to the V2 Hymnal, with one exception, are free of mistakes and well within the norms of suitability. Also, I know that Jeff has posted corrected versions of other settings when errors have been pointed out to him.

    My suggestion, therefore, is that if you think something is wrong with a particular setting of one of the hymns, then contact either Jeff or the arranger ... or (better) both.

    It may or may not be advisable or useful to start a new thread for corrections/comments on hymn settings in the V2 Hymnal.

    For my part, I welcome any comments on my own contributions:

    210 • Sing Praise To God (ULENBERG) • Two versions (original* and alternate)
    295 • Christ The Word To Earth Descended (Based on BATTY) • Alternate version
    353 • At The Lamb’s High Feast We Sing (SALZBURG) • Alternate version

    * My original version of 210 does has been erroneously transcribed (or edited by Jeff), and the correct harmonization is attached.
    Giffen-Nun lobet Gott-2.pdf
    68K
    Giffen-Nun lobet Gott-2.mp3
    773K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    My question is, since these are older hymns anyway, why not use the original harmonizations? They wouldn't seem to be still under copyright. Do you folks honestly think you can improve on hymns that are timeless standards? By all means, it is fine to include alternate harmonizations, as long as the originals are included, too.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    This is a good question to pose to the editor, but Jeff is only writing at his own site these days, so send him a note.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Thanks. Didn't know he had a site.
Add a Comment