Latin Pronunciation of "e" revisited
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 488
    Rather than piggybacking on the discussion of 'ae', here is a thread for 'e'

    I know the story with the Liber, but I have never experienced actually singing 'eh' as in 'men' for all Latin 'e' vowels. Or hearing this done by the world's professional choirs. It sounds bizarre to me.

    Against the Liber we have the idea of long and short vowel sounds - if you count long 'e' then there is, in fact a pure vowel as in 'may' minus any hint of a y diphthong at the end.

    The classic text that's a study in the 'e' vowel is Ave Verum Corpus. As sung by the Tallis Scholars:

    http://youtu.be/vFZZMF7SRRo

    Here, both the 'e' and the 'ae' (praegustatum) are pronounced as in 'may' (without any diphthong of course).

    Here is The Sixteen : http://youtu.be/Z2ckGcpx6xI

    More subtle with this group - some 'e's are more toward 'men' but never entirely - there is always a hint of brightness.

    Does anyone have a good explanation? To my ear a pure 'eh' as in men for all 'e' and 'ae' vowels has a very dull, strange sound.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Mehybe it's just my Massachusetts accent, but I think the difference between "eh" and "may sans diphthong" is non-existent.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen francis marajoy CCooze BruceL
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Mehybe it's just my Massachusetts accent, but I think the difference between "eh" and "may sans diphthong" is non-existent.


    Thehs.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I've sat here for the last ten minutes or so making these sounds.

    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay (sans diphthong)
    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
    eeeeeeeeeeh aaaaaaaaaay
    eh ay eh ay ehayehayehay

    There is a slight difference in tongue thickness.

    If I worked for the Tallis Scholars, maybe I would care.

    Since I conduct Texan amateurs, I will continue to pretend that "today" should be sung "toodeh," and hope that it doesn't sound like "tiDaaaiiieeeEE"
    Thanked by 4Chris Allen ny_ct_fl_ms_organist janetgorbitz Casavant Organist
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Copeman (Singing in Latin)observed that, precepts notwithstanding, Italians tend to sing Latin with the 7 vowels a e é i o ó u. The closed é is still a bit more open than Californian "may", let alone Bavarian mehr.

    Do any of you sing the first and last vowels of "Domino" identically?
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 488
    Richard,

    No on Domino - good point. I'm used to most final 'e's being long 'e's , and most final 'o's being long 'o's.
  • JPike1028
    Posts: 95
    The general consensus is that the choir sings [ε], but it sounds [e]. This is what I have experienced in both choir's I've sung with and directed.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Some prefer the brighter vowel approaching [e] as in "later" to the strict [ɛ] as in "bet," as [e] makes the vowel clearer and more distinct. For anglophones the danger is that [e] is dangerously close to the dipthong [eɪ]̯ as in “lane.”

    Given the pervasiveness of the dipthong error, it would seem wiser for amateur singers to stick with the short sound. The challenge is doing so consistently; the temptation will be to gravitate toward the long sound on accented and final syllables. E.g., few pronounce the e vowels in "Venite adoremus" identically.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    meh.
    Thanked by 5Andrew Motyka melofluent Andrew_Malton marajoy francis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Do any of you sing the first and last vowels of "Domino" identically?

    Not when I'm starved for pizza.
    Thanked by 3Ben Gavin francis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Feh, Ostrowski Rule Time: y'all just sing the vowel the way I want it sung. Solved.
    Thanked by 4Ben Liam Gavin Music_Miss
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 488
    The best explanation I've seen yet is Richard's, that the Italianate practice is to use 7 singing vowels (including long 'o' and 'e'). Maybe that's the tradition I somehow grew up in in Kansas...

    My takeaway is to be cautious whenever someone dogmatically insists on the Liber pronunciation rules - I don't think things are that cut and dried. Latin has been sung so many ways in different places and times - I just don't buy the '5 pure vowels or nothing' argument.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    be cautious whenever someone dogmatically insists on the Liber pronunciation rules anything that isn't actually dogma

    fixed
  • lilbielinski
    Posts: 17
    Thanks for this thread... an issue that I've been losing sleep over lately...
  • Torculus
    Posts: 44
    Italians tend to sing Latin with the 7 vowels a e é i o ó u.


    What vowel would you use in the word "in" as in "Gloria in excelsis Deo"?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I use the same vowel sound for the i in "in" ("for the ahee ihn een") as for those in the rest of the phrase.
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    I have been migrating toward closed vowels in pursuit of uniform resonance between vowels in my mostly amateur choir.
    Thanked by 3canadash CHGiffen chonak
  • leon.griesbach
    Posts: 32
    I think [ɛ] ("bet") is much harder to tune than [e]. I have my choristers stick with brighter vowels in general.
    Thanked by 1Music_Miss
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Neat discussion. Missed it the first time around.

    Moving from St. Louis to Alabama, it's really interesting how much different the vowel issues are. So much more tension in the St. Louis dialect. Here, lots of dipthongs and weird voiced consonants ("ng" in "king" and so on).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    here's the thing about the e as eh rule. If you insist on this, it will still sound normal because humans don't always follow directions, they don't always remember to follow directions, and when they think they are following directions, sometimes they aren't in reality. Sooooo, when it comes to 'trying for that perfect sound', well, you can get close, but you will never achieve perfection this side of heaven unless you are paying them a lot of money. it's like any other volunteer effort. you get what you pay for.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "you get what you pay for."

    Rather, you should count yourself *very lucky* if you even get what you pay for.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Going to college in Charlottesville +35 years ago, I was amazed to hear "Bill" as a three-syllable word. (Tidewater accent.)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    @Liam Virginia Tidewater accent aka most beautiful in America.

    Much more elegant than what we have here...or the hillbilly one that's my own!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Given a choice between Tidewater and Piedmont accents, I tend to prefer the lilt of the latter.

    That said, I adore Jean Ritchie's accent:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1pwPxujreU


  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    How delightful. Thanks for that video, Liam!
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