Singers: employees vs. contractors
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Are your paid singers independent contractors or employees? I'm talking about singers that you have regularly, not folks you might hire just for one or a few Masses.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,332
    When I was a paid singer in college, I was a paid employee. Now that I'm DM, they are contractors
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    If they are regularly scheduled (i.e. sing every week), employee. If more sporatic, then contractors.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    An informative page about the distinction is on-line here.

    Based on the traditional guidelines for distinguishing employees from contractors, I'd expect any regularly scheduled singer to be classified as an employee. But of course, IANAL.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 541
    In the last year or so, our diocese has required that anyone who renders services with any regularity be setup as an employee. I just means a different set of paperwork and that withholding happens. Hasn't been too traumatic, though we did have to fight over keeping our trumpet player as a contractor as his services are very sporadic. Their business office was focusing too much on how much was paid as I remember.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Marc, same thing happened at my parish a year ago. I am curious to know how you guys figure out the hourly rate that your singers are paid. That part was the headache for us.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I think it's still very uncommon for a paid singer to be anything other than a 1099 employee. This is, frankly, probably good for both: parish doesn't worry about taxes (other than give out the form) and the singer is free to miss as needed (or at least there is no determination of vacation, etc.)
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    Our paid cantors, even regular ones, are 1099 employees.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    We have been informed that having regular singers as 1099 contractors is illegal because they fit the IRS definition of employee.

    For those who do have singers as non-exempt employees, how do you determine their hourly rate? irishtenor, how did that work for you?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,332
    Informed by whom?

    I have a tendency to agree that these singers are technically very part-time employees who should have withholding taken care of for them, but I'm not the business manager and I don't need to make waves on this.

    I just figure out how many hours I ask of them per week and then divide it by the stipend and there's your hourly rate.

    It worked out great for me to be a regular, PT employee when I was in college. I haven't had any complaints from my singers who are currently receiving 1099s, though I would understand if they did complain, because I do think they're closer to meeting the definition of an employee than a contractor.
  • formeruser
    Posts: 22
    All of our paid choir singers, cantors and instrumentalists are 1099 employees.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Informed by whom?

    The diocesan chancery.
    I just figure out how many hours I ask of them per week and then divide it by the stipend and there's your hourly rate.

    Ok, that's more or less what we do. I think it's just a little more complicated for me because I have a singer who usually sings for four Masses a weekend, plus one rehearsal. If she misses a Mass or we don't have rehearsal that week, technically the hourly rate changes. Plus there are extra rehearsals and Masses at Christmas and Easter. So rather than looking at just that week, I did the same thing that you did, looking over an entire fiscal year, adding up every Mass and rehearsal stipend and dividing by the total number of hours. Because our payroll person tells me it is too onerous to change the hourly rate each pay period when things change.

    It just seems to me that it is a very bizarre way to pay singers (and I haven't met one yet who would prefer this system over being 1099). So I'm just trying to figure out how many others are in the same situation. So far it seems we are in the minority.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 541
    As to figuring out the hourly rate, we tell our business office the gross amount to pay, and they divide it into a basic hourly rate (say $20/hr) and figure out the number of "hours."
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Some payroll systems have a category for payments on a per-event basis (instead of per-hour), and the pay stub carries a label of "stipend" for the payment.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood irishtenor jpal Jahaza
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,332
    What chonak describes is basically what I do currently
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    This whole area is very slippery and confusing for businesses as well. Despite the government's attempts to clarify, it is NOT clear cut. The best bet is to rely on your best expertise at the Diocese level. And consistency is good.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • Theo
    Posts: 50
    At my parish, all regular and substitute singers are paid as independent contractors and get a 1099. They are paid once a month.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    FWIW, if the contractor earns less than $600.00/year, no 1099 is required, although it is prudent to create and send one.

    Technically, the IRS norms must be applied. The ruling was created to make certain that taxes are paid. If IRS discovers that Joe Smith has not paid income tax on his 1099 earnings and SHOULD have been classified as an employee, IRS has recourse to the parish or Diocese to collect the unpaid taxes.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Unfortunately, in our payroll system, it seems that wages for non-exempt employees are only entered hourly, and it is not easy to change the hourly rate for each pay period, so I guess what we are doing now is the best way to go under the circumstances.
    The ruling was created to make certain that taxes are paid.

    I think it was also (at least nominally) for the protection of the employee, to make sure that minimum wage laws are not being skirted. For example, if an employer referred to a recurring working as a "contractor" and paid them a very small stipend but demanded unreasonable hours and dictated exactly how the work was to be done. THAT doesn't happen in any Catholic churches.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    I think it was also (at least nominally) for the protection of the employee, to make sure that minimum wage laws are not being skirted.

    Well, also if someone is a w2 employee rather than a 1099 employee there are tax consequences that may make it more favorable for the singer (and less favorable for the parish) to be paid via w2.
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    THAT doesn't happen in any Catholic churches.


    This!! lol
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