Everyone can sing.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    Some may disagree with me, but I have held for some time that there is singing, then there is chanting. I have encountered many who can not sing classical solos or good choral literature. But they can chant. Chanting is not the same as singing, in my experience.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    There was a fine and holy priest assigned to our parish as an associate. He did not sing or chant well. He told me that the nun who directed his elementary school's choir told him he could not sing and had to leave the choir. What a shame. I wonder, if she knew he was going to be a priest, if she would have tried harder to teach him. If I ever have the chance to teach younger children again, I will keep him in mind.
  • For me:

    I like choral performances to be nuanced and polished. Like Haute cuisine.

    I like congregational singing to be rough and rugged, with everyone taking part. Like a pot-luck picnic.


    Agreed.

    I find it interesting that this thread took on a practical quality direction instead of a spiritual one (which is understandable considering the occupations on the forum, but nonetheless surprising to a non-DOM such as myself).

    This is completely my own opinion, but I feel like the crux of the matter should focus more on praying than it does with whether a person is "teachable". Singing in the Mass is a form of prayer, and it disappoints me greatly - GREATLY - when parishioners don't pray by song when the Mass calls for it.

    I remember singing in the choir with a man who was always out of key, but he was so nice, he tried SO HARD, he even went to extra rehearsals when the rest of us weren't there. I admire that. On the other hand, I imagine it was quite a challenge for the director and the other men.

    I don't like the idea of squelching song as prayer, though, just because they don't have a beautiful (good) voice. I know it sounds immensely cheesy, but one of the most beautiful things to me is to be able to hear a rough, slightly off-key parish OVER my classically-trained voice. I would be floored if they loved the Mass enough to sing out in prayer despite the imperfections and self-consciousness.

    /long-windedness
  • Once upon a time, an Anglican vicar and a Catholic priest had a contest, to see which congregation sang better. The good padre ordered mint condition editions of Glory and Praise. The vicar ordered copies of the telephone directory of Liverpool.

    After months of practice, the Catholic congregation squawked its way through a few of the best offerings of Glory and Praise, but only when there was a cantrix standing at the front, waving her arms. On 5 minutes notice, the Anglican vicar assembled his congregation, instructing them to turn to page 378, and begin singing at the top of the page, after an organ playover. The Anglicans sang in perfect four part harmony, though there was no score before them.

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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That was one foolhardy Catholic priest!
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  • IF taught and encouraged from a young age everyone can sing (not all sing well, but they can all sing). The trouble in our times has been a lack of music education, and the phenomena of talent shows such as American Idol. They create this popular idea that an ability to sing has to fit the model of a solo pop-star and because most people cannot sing just like that, they assume that they have no singing ability let alone talent.

    If you start in primary school with teaching them to sing a few basic hymns and common chants such as the Pater Noster, the missal-tone chant mass ordinary, some Marian antiphons and common communion hymns then they'll have some background for the rest of their life. It would especially help if they learned to sing all sorts of other songs rather than passively listen to their ipods.

    Perhaps the biggest problem in our modern times is that people are increasingly passive spectators and not active participants in anything let alone liturgy.
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  • Perhaps the biggest problem in our modern times is that people are increasingly passive spectators and not active participants in anything let alone liturgy.


    YES!
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  • As for me, I subscribe to the notion, as formulated by a good friend and colleague of mine with many years of experience as a choir trainer, that with limited exception, ANYONE, at any age, can develop a deep mastery of the art of choral singing. Note that I am saying "choral", NOT grand opera or solo singing.

    Barry Rose, the British organist/choirmaster (who is probably most known for his work at St. Paul's Cathedral, London as providing the music for the royal wedding of Charles and Diana), built a truly amazing men and boy's choir program from nothing at Guilford Cathedral, which is in a blue-collar industrial area about 27 miles southwest of London. If he believed half of the nonsense being talked on this thread, he wouldn't have even bothered.

    His philosophy, and the philosophy of many like him, is that the development of this mastery requires two things: 1) a willingness to pursue the craft and its various disciplines and techniques, and 2) time commitment. This is especially true with young children. When he "auditions" (or screens) potential choristers, he told me that he looks for three things: 1) the ability to match pitch (which may be rudimentary, but present nevertheless), 2) the ability to respond quickly to instructions and corrective exercises, and 3) a "twinkle in the eye" that tells him that the potential chorister has that desire to learn, together with a quick mind and a quick wit. These were his words to me when I met him several years ago while working with my boys' and girls' choir that was in its "infancy" (if you'll pardon the pun).

    Singing is a unique endeavor among the arts. It requires no special equipment. Everyone is born with vocal folds, breathing apparatus, a pair of ears and a brain. Choral singing is a group effort. Not everyone in a choir is required to have, nor is it desirable for them to have, a large, full-throated soloist's voice. One voice may sound rotten, but when blended with other voices, the sound can be quite magical. Under the leadership of a proper trainer, a group of amateurs CAN be trained to sing quite well. I know, I've both done it and seen it done.

    It saddens me to notice that more and more among my colleagues there is a thread of elitism running through their discussions and their philosophies. If we cannot come to understand the wonders of what "real people" are truly capable of accomplishing through time and dedication, then the culture war is lost along with true art, and the corrosive effects of the "American Idol" mentality has prevailed.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    It saddens me to notice that more and more among my colleagues there is a thread of elitism running through their discussions and their philosophies.


    His philosophy, and the philosophy of many like him, is that the development of this mastery requires two things: 1) a willingness to pursue the craft and its various disciplines and techniques, and 2) time commitment.


    I worry that I am becoming somewhat elitist because I have turned people away from the choir. Generally these people admit that they do not read music nor have they ever sung in a choir. They also cannot match a pitch. So I ask them to take a few months of singing lessons and come back. The problem has been that none of them have taken me up on the challenge. They don't want to pursue the craft nor do they want to take the time to learn it. They just want to sing. I wonder if they would feel the same way about being asked to bake and decorate a cake or change the oil in a car without directions and experience.





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  • If they cannot match pitch, and clearly demonstrate that they have no desire to engage in the time to learn the discipline, then of course politely and privately explain that their gift lies elsewhere.

    I am not saying that all comers must be given a place. I am saying that all comers should be afforded the opportunity.

    Part of the elitism I see is what could be called a "Wizard of Oz" complex. Rather than engaging Dorothy et al, he put on a big show, surrounding himself and his abilities in smoke and mirrors. I sometimes think that certain music directors either don't want to take the time, be bothered with, or even understand the basics of training a choir. They would rather spend their time planning and executing grand pieces of music with people who can make a big noise. I see my work as a choir trainer and commited sacred musician as an "evangelical" one, if you will.

    My approach is to state to current and potential choir members quite clearly those requirements I stated above (commitment of time and willingness to learn). Beyond that, I tell people that learning to sing, and indeed learning the basics of reading music is no great mystery. My task is to demystify the art and pull down the curtain surrounding the Wizard.
  • So I ask them to take a few months of singing lessons and come back. The problem has been that none of them have taken me up on the challenge. They don't want to pursue the craft nor do they want to take the time to learn it. They just want to sing.


    I think that it takes a lot of nerve for a person to come forward and ask to sing. They are asking to be part of your group, which is a great compliment to you.

    If a woman or a man sitting in a bar has others offering to buy her/him a drink either they have an appearance that, either through physical beauty or through the way that they dress attracts people. If the offer is refused, the person offering will be disappointed. If the offer is refused by the intended recipient displaying a wedding ring that was not visible, then the disappointment is less, since a reason was given instead of this being an outright rejection.

    When someone asks to be in the choir you have two choices, saying yes or no. I'd suggest that you have a choice in the way that you say no. I know that in suggesting lessons you do not want to say an outright no, which I think is great!

    If they are told to go and take voice lessons and learn how to read music, some will be disappointed and go away and never come back, since they don't really know how to find a voice teacher.

    I myself, would invite them to a class that I would teach each week to them and any weak singers in the choir who might enjoy learning....it's more work for me, but I am paid (or am willing to work for free) to build a choir.

    Now, you may not have time or the ability to do this - in that case I'd tell them that you have a special arrangement with "Mrs. XXX" who teaches voice and also basic music reading at a special price that you have arranged through the church. (most teachers will discount lessons a bit for a period of time if you ask them nicely - since you are feeding them with students). And get their phone number and make the call to her and then back to them to set this up.

    Your personal attention to all of this will attract them and more new members.

    I'd invite these prospective members to a choir event - pizza or something, to show them what they can look forward to. I'd even pull them in on special occasions to sing the congregational hymns with the choir.

    The fact that you are worried about this is a good sign that you are a compassionate person, that's wonderful.

    Is this helpful at all?

  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Yes, thank you it is helpful. There is, in fact, a young woman in the choir who teaches lessons, so that was offered. But so far, there haven't been any "takers". I rarely turn people away, only when it is obvious that someone in the choir will throw them over the loft if they sing off-pitch in their ear for the year! I don't want to frustrate the good people I have so they quit! This kind of circumstance presented itself to me one year and I knew that as the director I had to do something about it.
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  • I for one do believe that every student is teachable. I also believe that they can sing whether they think they can or not. I will freely admit that I am no professional voice teacher and I do have trouble teaching students who cannot match pitch or sing monotone. Largely I find that in the students I have taught the issue is not ability but attitude: when a student is nervous or self-conscious about singing, they do not put the effort into it, and they don't try. Some also don't know what it feels like to sing higher or lower, which to me seems to be the main issue behind it. We have a priest right now who is learning to chant the Eucharistic prayer, but is having trouble maintaining pitch. I asked the music director at the church (I just teach music there and play for Mass during the week), if he had done sirens with him, and I received a blank stare: the DM didnt know what sirens were. I had the priest do a couple, which he performed very well. After that, the chant lesson went much more smoothly. The sirens helped him feel what it was like to sing higher pitches and lower pitches, and therefore helped him stay on pitch. The bottom line is that I have found that sirens can help the monotone singers.

    My background, by the way, is in instrumental music: chiefly orchestral instruments. I only learned keyboards after the church hired me.
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  • What are sirens?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Vocal sirens. Here's one posting on youtube. (There are many.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGrfkAvZ_ek
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Ascending and descending glissando vocalizing (usually on "ah") from the extreme points of one's voice, ie. highest falsetto down thru mixed/head voice to "chest" voice and back up, repeatedly.
  • Sirens are incredibly helpful. I like to use a hum [m] or hum on nn [n]. Most singers tend to lessen their expectation of what their voice "should" sound like, as there is less of a need to address tone. I also go from lower to higher, up then down then up again in smaller or taller circles, until they feel the difference and the gradation.

    I also recommend using oo [u] and ee [i] for vowels in the beginning. They are more focused and lots of folks it easier to maneuver simple scalar passages on these vowels.

    Another one I've discovered is the "hoot". I ask people to make a few owl hoots, then do it again and concentrate on how that feels, how they access the notes. If they can do that, they can access the head voice. They just don't use that part of their voice in speech, so it often feels weird at first. Bonus: kids like this one.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    I often ask them to sing "Hooty-hoo," as in Ernest T. Bass from the old Andy Griffith show. Good for head voice.
  • I heart Andy Griffith. Shoulda been a southern girl. :)
  • I usually use "o" as my vowel for sirens.

    @canadash: some people are just as guilty of elitism as they think the directors are. For example some of the people who came to your choir but would not take up the challenge clearly do not want to work for the joy of singing, which tells me one of two things: either they are just looking for something quick that they can say they are good at (boasting, hence elitism), or they thought singing would be easy, despite your disclosures up front about it (more likely given the cultural attitudes regarding music in general).
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