Does it depend on if the two parties are women?

I say that I work with "high-maintenance" and "low-maintenance" cantors and choir members. All of the female members fall in the "high-maintenance" category. :)

Speaking from the pews:

I make it a habit to speak with musicians after mass. I would guess the ratio is about 3:1 male to female here. I cannot think of many times where they have not been welcoming, willing to talk (unless another mass is coming up, understandably), or helpful in any way. Maybe it's a midwest thing...

So far I've found that it's been hard to work with a majority of cantors that I've had. However, I would say that the women have been more difficult because the one that have given me trouble have made pains to seem entirely pleasant to my face, but work behind my back to undermine things, gain favor for themselves, and/or discredit me. The men who are difficult tend to just say everything they think right to my face and I can at least respect that.

I will not put up with difficult people who are disruptive. They leave quickly.

Sometimes, it doesn't matter how talented a person is, if they are undermining the program and creating dissension in the choir. Those you are better off without.

Sorry you think my thread is so silly. No sillier then other threads that comment on jealousy, etc. I thought it was an interesting topic. But, to each his own, I guess.

Most of the church musicians I know are male, so I haven't a clue.

Do men even join church choirs except to meet nice Catholic girls?

Well, I'm glad you'll continue to read my silliness.......this world is too hard and somebody has to have a sense of humor! If I can continue to serve in this capacity, then so be it. And, now that I think of it, perhaps I need to start recruiting some good looking, younger singers so that it will be an attraction for good singers! Never thought of playing Cupid as part of my ministry, but it just might work!

Since there are more women than men in choirs (in many cases), it's a good place for men to meet smart, good looking, musical women. (That's where I met my wife, and we just celebrated our 35th anniversary).

Removed as the original post came across as thoughtless...

The only difference as I see it is that women are better overall.
What with the way men growl their chant, clod on the stairs, and stain their surplices, I say only women should be singing the propers. High time!

I don't know how to do the blue or purple thing, and I'm too out of it to find out now.

In all seriousness, I am a huge fan of men and women musicians, though I respect our differences, and the lower position of men in general.

The most difficult musicians to work with are the mediocre ones who think highly of themselves. And the excellent ones who think too highly of themselves. And the truly incompetent ones who know it, stay in parishes, and force feed junk to the faithful.

Attitude and skill matter. Music is a merit based art, not sex or gender based.

The original intent of this thread was to ask decent questions about men versus women in music ministry. It had no intent, whatsoever, to go to a place that would lead to comments degrading either sex or ethnic groups. I started the thread because I am a fairly new (2 years) DOM at a very difficult parish and have had to overcome incredible odds with acceptance of not only me, personally, but in my desire to maintain sacred music after years and years of drums and guitars.

If anybody went in the wrong direction (and praise God I did not see them), then I apologize to the entire CMAA community for starting a thread that gave way to comments not suitable.

I've found that most DOMs that are women had had a more difficult job in handling their choirs simply because they receive less respect. And, that women choir members and/or musicians tend to be a lot more moody and emotional. But, that is what I've found in MY OWN PARISH. I simply wanted to see if what I was experiencing was typical.

God bless to all. We all come to the Table of the Lord with the gifts He has bestowed.

My comment was not invective. It was an invitation to retract invective. Specifically, the gentleman who denigrated women wisely and commendably retracted his comment, but the lady who has denigrated men has let her's stand. Is there, after all, a double standard here??? (If you really are interested in blatant and indecent invective you might read the comment by someone called The Catholic Choirbook in the thread about the Bigelow organ.)

Jackson,

She was kidding around.

I have been doing a personal examination of conscience to discern whether I am the boorish offender in question. I had posted, "In answer to your original question, I have had more difficulty with males. The females tend to be more reliable."

I was hestitant to even make that much of a comment, but I could tell that Musicteacher56 was sincere in starting this discussion. There was absolutely no rancor intended in my comment. It has simply been my experience that it is easier to do music-planning with women. Due to many of the men's work schedules (some of whom also have large families), it is dicier to plan for holydays, weddings, and funerals. (No one shoot me for insinuating that many women don't also have work schedules.) Additionally, the women tend to study their music more between practices. Once again, this could possibly be explained by the hectic work/family schedules that some male choir members juggle.

Well, to clear this up, I was referring (it seemed quite obvious to me) to MACW's comment that she 'in all seriousness... respect[s] our differences, and the lower position of men in general'. There was no rancour in my remark, only a genuine concern for fair play.

Dear Jackson,
There is no way for you to be brought up to speed via one post of MACW regarding knowing her and thus how to get her generally very precise POV's and statements. Given the circumstances, which she also alluded to in the post you cite, I was surprised she even posted yesterday. MACW, from the day I met her in 07 is one of the most joyfilled and truest Christians I've ever had the pleasure of knowing and befriending. The song and cliche, to know her is to love her, is a virtual representation of a soul dedicated to loving God and serving His Son.
This mention is in no way a refutation of your feelings, but only another lens by which you can review the mirth she intended. Please trust me on this.
I would like to say that this forum has seen many a skirmish turn into a siege battle, and in some cases a civil war between factions of very principled people of diverse backgrounds and biases. I plead guility as having been a combatant in those divisions.
But, of late, the internecine invective among ourselves has ramped up significantly.
All I have ever cared about here is that we try to show Christ's love to each other as it has been shown to many of us at Colloquia.
And when you go to colloquium, try to stay in the adjoining room of MACW. Listening to her vocal warmups at 6am must be a prelude to the heavenly song of Glory.

No offense to MT56, but the original posting had no good place to go. Maybe when we see a similar posting we should more quickly intervene?

And since people got to express their experiences, and express their views about differences between the sexes, and about matters related to merit, MT56's question brought forth some worthwhile responses. So I'm not sorry she posted it.

I find the best way to get along with women in my choir, is to tell them they are the brightest, most beautiful, dedicated and talented singers any choir director could hope for. I also take the time to listen to them when they have something to say.

Men, I listen to, and when they do something good, I tell them.

I'd like to say that Mary Ann is the most man-loving woman I know. However, I'm afraid of being misunderstood.

(This entire comment is a joke.)

Understood, and I never suggested we should only discuss "happy" things.

In my opinion, though, it's one thing to come here to discuss a bad experience in the hopes of finding counsel/consolation, and another to suggest that the cause of the bad experience was the sex of the other person involved.

To me, it does not seem good to stereotype others based on their sex, but -- as you've noted -- there are others who apparently disagree.

But, I still can't help wondering: having confirmed a stereotype that "all/most female muscians tend to [engage in certain bad behavior of your choosing]", what then?

Ban female musicians? Inform female musicians of your findings and warn them that such behaviors will not be tolerated?

Or, establish acceptable standards of conduct which you expect all your musicians to abide by, regardless of sex?