AND THIS.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    This is another excellent post for discussion at the Café.

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2013/08/an-appeal-to-new-evangelization.html
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    Why, yes!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    And the comments are the reason I stopped commenting on blogs.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Aristotle Esguerra ryand
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    Oh, man: that guy who posted four comments in a row: is he the Rip van Winkle of our age, waking up after a long nap since 1985?

    Thanked by 4Gavin CHGiffen Spriggo Hilary Cesare
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    image
    Thanked by 4Andrew_Malton expeditus1 Hilary Cesare francis
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    If Marty Haugen's "Shepherd Me, O God" is still around in 500 years, I'm going to rise from my grave and wreak havoc!!!! The guy who posted all those comments is like every other dissident to sacred music and obviously not a musician who knows the difference between good and bad music.

    I agree with Chonak.........perhaps he finally woke up after a long dream of strumming a guitar and shouting "Amen" with his hands waving in the air, and completely slept through Benedict's papacy. Or better still, perhaps he is just someone who was denied a course in world history, along with its chapters on church music. In any case, he needs to "get with the program".
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Golly, I seem to remember seeing a phrase:
    Here's a routine reminder: Critique principles, not people.


    If we can't gracefully acknowledge people who have different viewpoints, then let's please be honest about it. I, for one, enjoy conversations which can discuss disagreements without becoming acerbic. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen much these days, here or anywhere else.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen formeruser
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thank you, Carl. That principle ought to also apply, accepted and practiced by the founder and some of the contributors to the Cafe as well as commentors.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    Did you get to see the guy's comments, Carl? They really were a rant.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    Carl, the fellow listed, without explanation, a litany of inferior compositions as examples of timelessness. At a certain point, a person self-identifies with the principle. He stands for them.

    He also demanded a response from me while I was asleep, because, actually, it's nighttime here, and when I didn't respond right away he posted 3 more times to back up his initial point.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    when I didn't respond right away he posted 3 more times to back up his initial point.

    Bump.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I understand the frustration. But I also see way too many comment threads which keep escalating in emotion until it all explodes into a black hole of disgust. We've noted that it happens here on occasion.

    I rarely jump into these discussions myself, because of course I can get emotional as well. But I occasionally try to nudge as the voice of grace and good Christian kindness, especially when it hasn't yet gotten out of hand.

    I admit that grace-filled discussion is very hard to maintain, especially when you feel as if someone's attacking you. But we're all on this journey together, aren't we?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    All right.

    Here's a more irenic response to the guy:

    We're not going to know for sure whether some song by Haugen, Farrell, or Joncas is enduring until they get older. They may endure despite their dated styles, just as some old Victorian hymns have endured despite their dated styles (see some of the works on http://catholicdevotionalhymns.com for examples). But having a dated style does tend to weigh against calling them "timeless".

    Already many songs from the 1970s and 80s have disappeared from use: I haven't heard "Though the Mountains May Fall" sung in public since -- well, since the old century, for sure. Or "I Have Loved You".
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I have heard them from an old Catholic school music teacher who doesn't know much else.
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 75
    Just last week, our parish had programmed "Though the Mountains May Fall" and "I Have Loved You" for our "contemporary" Mass. Unfortunately, they're still around. I have only begun this journey to better liturgical music, but I see it is still a long road ahead. With perseverance, the "mountains" of questionable liturgical music will fall and the "hills" of poorly written texts will turn to dust.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Hilary Cesare
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    Welcome to the forum, cmbearer!

    These songs that don't really belong in the liturgy may still have a place, as devotional music, perhaps, or as religious entertainment music to be sung at home, in the car, or at a party. Some of them may even be suitable for use in new-evangelization media.
    Thanked by 2cmbearer Adam Wood
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    Chonak--I totally agree with you. Much of the music we consider on this forum as not proper for worship certainly can help with evangelization. I think we all concede that our comments are towards music that should not be included in liturgy. And, I've found that those who do not agree with CMAA's viewpoints on liturgical music are not short on comment, such as the man who made so many posts to the Café article. My problem comes from people who insist that traditional sacred music is "old fashioned" and needs to be replaced. My response is usually to refer them to Mozart and Beethoven, both of whom could easily be considered "old fashioned".

    Carl--yes, no doubt we are all on this journey together and, as such, should be tolerant, patient and kind toward those who do not share our viewpoints. However, it becomes increasingly difficult when, despite common decency to show a certain viewpoint, some people (usually those in opposition to true sacred music) insist that they are "right" by ranting. I don't believe in it being so much of an attack, as more of a great passion to make sure they are not threatened by music that seems to be gaining more and more acceptance worldwide. But, we should all, including those who are in the "modern" camp, be tolerant of each other. I've found that more sacred music followers are tolerant of those who do not share these views, than those who are against it. Both camps needs to find a compromise in order to praise His name. And, understanding that some music is more suited to devotions than to worship in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a start in that compromise.

    My referral to "Shepherd Me, O God" was because of its paraphrase of Psalm 23 and should not be included in the mass. Using it as a devotional, is fine with me. But, I'm just a humble musician trying to figure out why I was given this ministry. When the Lord led me to this ministry, He forgot to give me the handbook that includes the chapters on psychological health.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    In the role of evangelization - an important part of why these discussions take place in open forums online - we have to learn how to act. I include myself, as it's a constant struggle for me.

    Our Church will be insulted. Our beliefs will be denigrated. We will be slapped, spit upon, perhaps even martyred.

    Despite this, we are called to be firm in our faith, resolute, ... but also kind and forgiving. The question I ask myself: If Jesus himself was looking over my shoulder as I type something, would I change it? Would He call me to a larger being in the world?

    That's the journey I'm on, and I suspect many of us are in a similar place.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    If anyone has anything to unleash and unload, dump it all on Ben Yanke's facebook page. Hi, Ben! Are you looking for friends like that?
    Thanked by 1Hilary Cesare
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I have learned that Ben has a dark side. Be careful! ;-)
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Perhaps Ben could fulfill the role of "musicians' mensch." I'm fairly certain that with the start of the fall semester, he will have many hours of idle time in which to provide online support to aid and assist the sour, the dour, the jaded, the embittered, the hostile, and those who, as Musicteacher56 described above, are missing the "handbook that includes the chapters on psychological health."

    Alas! These qualities beat within my own breast. I learned a new vocabulary word today - "unmensch" (meaning: an utterly unlikeable or unfriendly person).
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