Introducing New Mass Settings
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    For anyone here who uses more modern Mass Settings as opposed to the Gregorian Ordinaries, how do you go about introducing a new one to the congregation?
    I ask because I would LOVE to use Proulx's Missa Simplex for Advent, but the Advent Season is so short that I'm not sure it's worth switching. Thoughts?

    We currently use the Revised Heritage Mass for all seasons except Lent when we use a combination of Mass XVIII and the ICEL Chant Mass.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Found another discussion on it here, but would also love some fresh input.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    For Advent, I have typically used the Proulx Missa Emmanuel (and/or a homemade Latin version of the same). I think, being based on a tune with which everyone is familiar, it's easy to get away with bringing it in just for Advent, which is as you say very short.

    For anything else, I think it would need to have some time to get traction. Say, bring back whatever you've done in Advent for Lent. But obviously in you're situation, you might not want to displace the Mass XVIII/Missal chants.
  • I intend to use Collegeville's Psallite Mass here in Advent, and I've been teaching it right now. I'll use it through September, then switch off of it for a couple months, then bring it back.

    After two months off, most Catholics will think, "Oh, we've always done this one." It's a weird perception thing.

    I know many people hate teaching music before Mass, but I think for things like this it's a necessary evil. Thankfully, the Psallite Mass is ridiculously easy and I was able to get away with running through it just one weekend. After that, repetition will do the job for you.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • When I do this, I introduce one new "part" each week until everything I want to do from that setting has been introduced. Then I use the same setting for weeks on end. When I first introduced LeBlanc's St. Benedict Mass (which was the first one we did when the revised missal was implemented), we did it each week for probably 9 months. Right now we rotate between that one and the revised Heritage Mass. We are switching from Breaking Bread to Gather 3 and Celebrating the Eucharist later this year (it's official now; the books have been ordered) and I plan on making use of some of the better settings found therein to supplement what we've been using. Particularly interested in the revised Deutsche Mass and the People's/Danish settings from Gather, and the Austrian Mass from CTE. I think parts of Simplex are also included in there, and there is a lovely new setting in honor of St. Cecilia by David Hurd that's in the accompaniment binders that I'd like to consider if it's also in the missalettes.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Collegeville's Psallite Mass

    It's so good!
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I've found that infusing each new Mass setting requires a variety of approaches and strategies based upon the nature and properties of the Mass setting itself. Some, like the Proulx/Schubert and the Proulx Oecumenica have a sort of built-in intuition that congregations get rather quickly and allow the choir to sing readily in parts. Others, like Alstott's Heritage or a hidden old (unrevised) gem like Schiavone's Holy Family utilize some well-crafted motives that are reiterated with just the right amount of frequency. Schiavone's use of a primary motive instead of a repeated "refrain" in order to have a cohesive yet famliar through composed Glory was quite novel, satistfying both quire and congregation.
    Newer settings like Nickel's St. Terese and JMO's Ostrowski have both intuitive elements in the soprano melody, but they're more subtley set and required much more time to be engrained, so using the men to sing the melody, later adding the women singing alto was a longer process before finally going to full voices. I've mentioned we're six month's into Chris Mueller's MR3, and so far this is the toughest sell. It's almost too gorgeous in its "compact unity" for a congregation to want to enter rather than listen to. And outside of the Kyrie and the Agnus Dei, I'm not sure that the Glory and Holy introductory motives have enough hook melodically to convince the unison congregation to enjoin. As our pastor recently (for the first time) asked us all to mark the seasons with varied settings, we'll move next to Clark''s Angels which I think will yield more melodic singing from the PiPs.
    But I think an analysis of any setting would provide some insight as how to achieve initial and steady progress with the folks.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    One of our cantors came up with the idea (glad she did, because I didn't think of it) to do some MAJOR upselling of the new Mass setting right before we go through it before Mass. It has actually worked in getting people on board. We've got a rather elderly congregation, so naturally they complain whenever anything changes.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    What about using a soon-to-be-introduced setting as an organ prelude for awhile beforehand?
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I've seen that used successfully. We did it, and it seemed to help some.
  • For those who are introducing new settings before mass, or even hymns/propers, how exactly are you going about that? Do you send a cantor in front of the congregation at the ambo or other suitable place, and start annoucing? I am curious, as it feels very strange standing in front of the congregation before mass why everyone is praying.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    What's wrong with, say, singing the Gloria right after mass, instead of a postlude or recessional? An announcement that such parts of the new setting of the Ordinary are being sung at the conclusion of mass will inform the congregation what is about to transpire ... and those interested enough to actually make the leap and join in singing the Ordinary will react favorably (if they like the new setting).
  • When I introduce a new Mass setting I introduce it over a month. The first Sunday I start with either the Sanctus or the Agnus Dei, then add an element over the next three weekends. I also tend to continue the same setting used in Advent during the Christmas season. Since the Missa Simplex is not based on a familiar chant/hymn like Missa Emmanuel I would introduce it over the summer then go back to a standard for the remainder of Ordinary time and then bring it back for Advent/Christmas.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    I've found there isn't much difference between introducing things slowly/incrementally and just changing the entire ordinary all at once. Sink or Swim!

    People often arrive late or don't come every week and miss any pre-Mass rehearsal
    Too much rehearsal before Mass is distracting for those who actually do arrive early and want to pray.
    Worship aids can work miracles even for those who don't read music (getting people to look at them is another issue)
    Some people won't sing no matter what.
    Like melo said, many settings have a recurring motive that ties all the movements together so keeping them all together is preferable anyways
    Personally I like the musical and liturgical integrity of keeping Mass settings unified.
    Even though Advent is only 4 weeks, doing a different Mass settings helps to set the season apart (and unless is truly unique to Advent, like Missa Emmanuel, it could be repeated for Lent, or...)
    If it's worth repeating (and it should be) you can always sing it again next year, and the year after that, etc. I think annual repetition is as effective as weekly repetition--it just takes longer to establish the pattern.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • My parish went from Haugen's Mass of Creation to Proulx Missa Simplex in one week. It was a shock, but the choir learned it very easily in one rehearsal and the people are now singing it with no problems. I don't believe in changing the ordinary at all during the year. The ordinary is the one part of the mass that calls for "active participation" in all the Vatican II documents as I see it, and changing the ordinary only causes confusion. But that's my humble opinion.
  • As far as setting the seasons apart from each other, that's where hymnody comes in. But, again, it's just a personal preference to keep the Ordinary unified during the year.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Wonderful feedback, as always!
    Well, we have been using the Heritage Mass since the implementation of MR3 with the exception of Lent... so that's going on two years. I did switch to form A of the Mystery of Faith from form B last Advent, and use form C for Lent.

    I think it is good for congregations to develop a healthy repertoire of Ordinary settings because even the GR specifies which settings should be sung when. It also helps those that might be ignorant of the Liturgical Calendar (more than you think...) to understand something is different. But in response to MT56's post, I always keep the words of a colleague in mind: "When we (the musicians) are getting bored, the congregation is just starting to find confidence."

    I do agree the the Missa Simplex is rather intuitive and would probably be one of the better choices for an Advent switch. Lots to think about....
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I heartily agree with you MT56 on maintaining a particularly stable and otherwise worthy Mass setting. I think prior to MR3 I'd only rotated about 6 to 8 settings for the choir/schola Mass for about 12 years. At the vigil, we used the same Gloria from 93 to 2010. It's kind of like "Do we sing a fake "Happy Birthday" like at Applebees or use the universally known version?"
    But, like the Gregorian 18, there is a virtue to be discovered about rotating great settings that will be taken up congregationally to mark seasons. Difficulty is-finding the right rotation.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    What's wrong with, say, singing the Gloria right after mass, instead of a postlude or recessional? An announcement that such parts of the new setting of the Ordinary are being sung at the conclusion of mass will inform the congregation what is about to transpire ... and those interested enough to actually make the leap and join in singing the Ordinary will react favorably (if they like the new setting).


    This depends on where you are: at my parish, people begin leaving their seats almost as soon as the final verse of the recessional starts (as soon as Father has processed out, usually). We are pretty much compelled to do any teaching before Mass because of this: nobody at our parish even stays long enough to hear a short postlude.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Mass settings or hymns follow the same pattern. I start several months in advance and play them during offertories, communion, or anywhere else that I may need filler. I do this until the melodies cause people to think, "I've heard that before." At some point, I have the choir and cantors sing them if possible. Many in my congregation read music, so after a couple of weeks they have picked up anything new and have no problems with it. I don't do change for the sake of change. Mass settings change no more often than liturgical seasons change.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I always change settings at the Season. Yes, the difficulty is finding the right ones. But, if nothing else, you can certainly find 3 that are either known or easy to learn (Purple, Green, White).

    Also- at my parish, and I'm sure this is the case in many other places- they already knew bits and pieces, but no unified Ordinaries. So, for example- they were very comfortable with the Sanctus from the Proulx/Schubert German Mass, but not the rest of the setting. So we've learned other pieces from it a bit at a time, and (for Christmas season this year) we'll do the whole thing (instead of a mish-mosh like in the past).

    I find NOT changing Ordinaries at the seasons to be liturgically distressing- like if the priest wore green on Christmas, or if we had a sanctuary full of Poinsettias on the 17th Sunday of Ordinary Time.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    The rehearsal before Mass, as much as I despise it, works. So it's hard to argue with that one.

    In 2008, Jeff Tucker posted about introducing Gloria XV at his church. What he did is distributed practice CDs to the congregation some time before the Gloria was used. He reported a great success.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    As for the changing and selection of ordinaries itself, my last church was Episcopalian, rarely using a complete ordinary setting but rather selections by many different composers. I found a best practice of changing at the season (also at fall) and using only known settings, but including a single new setting. For example, the Gloria might be unfamiliar, but the rest would be. It was slow, but effective.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    We change our mass setting every six weeks and are going through the Kyriale and also using Henri DuMont's mass settings, although we maintain the same Gloria (VII) and Credo III for consistency.

    I announce the new mass setting ahead of time in the handout and give a link to the Corpus Christi Watershed website where videos and mp3's may be found. We sing the new pieces before Mass and by the second week, the people are singing along.

    Even though we always use organ accompaniment with our chant masses, I've discovered that it's also very helpful to have a violin or flute play the people's part along with them. They really pick it up quickly then.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Gavin- same situation as mine. Same approach. Works.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Has anyone tried the idea of providing the "assembly" parts, or "congregation" parts on cards, so that those who want to can see the music, instead of learning it by rote?

    We use Orbis Factor for a large portion of the year, but we also sing Byrd's Mass for 3 Voices, Lux et Origo and Cum Jubilo So far, we limit ourselves to Mass I and Mass III, so these are well known.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Has anyone tried the idea of providing the "assembly" parts, or "congregation" parts on cards, so that those who want to can see the music, instead of learning it by rote?


    I would never expect a congregation to learn Mass settings by rote. If you want them to sing it, print it in the program. Even if it's the Mass of Creation- print it.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    I print cards for the PIPs. Colored for each season.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    For Ordinary Time, I strongly dislike long blocks of one setting of the Ordinary, unless it's to learn a new one. Otherwise, once it's in the repertoire, you should be able to rotate them (it also keeps the congregation more nimble to learn things - while I find MDs typically justify non-rotation to avoid burdening the congregation, more typically it's really to avoid burdening the choir rehearsal, and that's a formula for gradual slackening of standards for the Ordinary - if the musicians treat the Ordinary as musical wallpaper, then the congregation cannot be expected to do better).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Point well taken, KLS. But a director worth their sand and salt would, every Sunday/HDO, be a model for a Hopkins' like mining, deep deep down, to unveil something new and fresh in any setting used over any duration.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    changing the Ordinary to suit the season is hardly "musical wallpaper"
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Adam

    Ordinary Time is not a "season". But treating the entire block between Pentecost and Advent as if it were one (or two) puts the Ordinary on an unacceptable auto-pilot mode so far as I am concerned. Having been in several parishes where the choices for the larger sections of Ordinary rotated weekly during Ordinary Time, I find that approach is superior, though it makes more demands on rehearsal time (and, in all those years, of the myriad complaints I heard from congregants, there were none begging that we keep to one setting of the Ordinary for such a long block of time). One's mileage may vary.
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    Regarding the Missa Emannuel, I've heard friends say that they don't really like it, and neither do I.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    When my predecessor used Missa Emannuel, the congregation laughed at it for impersonating authentic chant.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    That does seem like what it's doing.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Having been in several parishes where the choices for the larger sections of Ordinary rotated weekly during Ordinary Time, I find that approach is superior.

    This seems much more sensible to me, too.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I can't get behind Missa Emmanuel. I want to. But I can't. First, I despise the fact that it repeats words. (I know it's allowed, and that my current Mass Setting does the same, but I still dislike it.) Second, it doesn't seem like the words fit the music. Third, the "antiphonal" structure is a nice idea, but one that I feel is executed poorly.

    I quite like the Missa Simplex for Advent. I can't explain why, but when I first heard it, it immediately struck me as "Adventy." If I'm not mistaken, though, isn't Mass XVIII assigned to Advent, Lent, and the Requiem?
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    When my predecessor used Missa Emannuel, the congregation laughed at it for impersonating authentic chant.


    That does seem like what it's doing.


    If all the Mass Ordinaries we were singing were from the Kyriale, I'd quite agree with this statement. On the other hand if you're congregation would be in uproar over singing one of the Kyriale settings unaccompanied, Missa Emmanuel is a fine place to introduce that sonic landscape. In an ideal world, I'd use Mass XVII.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I've introduced XVII to normal, average congregations and it has turned out just fine. Just do it amazingly and people will love it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I never rehearse music before Mass. Tacky, tacky, tacky! I always let the choir sing new movements by themselves during Mass for a few weeks and invite the congregation to listen. This requires a short announcement before the Mass begins. Then after a few weeks, invite the congregation to sing as much as they feel comfortable. I also play the movement as a prelude instrumentally, which subconsciously goes into the brain. I also never try to introduce a whole new ordinary, just one movement per month or two. Eventually, after half a year, they MIGHT have a new setting sitting in their brains. Don't expect too much. Go slow, be patient and the congregation will be more supple.

    Pieces like the Kyrie and Agnus Dei, of course, can be simpler to learn if it is repetitive.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Ok, last defense of (excuse for) Missa Emmanuel. I don't do it as written. I don't do the antiphonal repeats (usually), and I do it in my own Latin adaptation, so I can make sure the words fit [better]. I'm probably breaking lots of laws, and offending lots of good taste, but it's worked for me.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    My biggest issue with it (I think) is the antiphonal repeats, so I am thankful to hear that I am not the only one with this issue. Again, I think it is a wonderful idea to get people comfortable with antiphonal singing.... I'm just not sure the Sanctus, in that particular way, is the appropriate place.

    But I DEFINITELY see the appeal of the Mass, hence my indication above that I "want" to get behind it. It is a familiar chant melody... very strongly related to the Advent season. It would definitely perk people up and create a sense that we are definitely in a new season.

    I think the best compromise to the above discussion regarding how often to change the Ordinary IS to keep it constant through Ordinary Time so that the folks feel downright solid on one Ordinary and then change for Advent/Christmas, Lent/Easter, etc. Perhaps you could change your "OT" Ordinary from cycle to cycle thus increasing their "solid" repertoire, but I definitely think it is important to keep one setting for an extended period of time. If you get terribly bored, you might consider switching to two OT settings... one for Summer, and one for Fall before Christ the King. But in my congregation, people take comfort in not having to learn an new ordinary every four weeks because I'm introducing better quality hymnody. Perhaps if I weren't trying to reverse some of the terrible repertoire of the past, we could focus a bit more on building up Mass Settings. This is the primary reason that YMMV.
  • @Gavin - the practice cds, is it legally ok?

    I do want to change mass settings for advent and recording the mass setting seems like a brilliant idea. But since our budget is so limited I was thinking of posting them online, non downloadable, in our Parish website (under music). So people can go and listen? Just wondering if its legally allowable?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Legally, I'd say not. But, there aren't enough copyright cops in the world regarding practice CD's. However, on moral grounds that practice would be between you and Jesus. For major choral works there are free website practice sites that are awesome.
    For posting copyrighted and commercial settings on your parish or other public website, definitely not legal unless you have secured permissions probably from a number of concerned parties, including composer, copyright owner if different, publishing house, performance rights agencies like ASCAP, etc.
    You could easily link to a publisher's website for mp3 examples that are publicly posted on their website. Nothing wrong in that.
    Thanked by 1theloniouslopez
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I'm convinced that, contra the declarations of copyright holders, practice recordings pass at least two of the four tests for "Fair Use" (and the more important of the four, at that) and do not constitute a violation.

    But that's just me.
    Thanked by 1theloniouslopez
  • Proulx's Missa Simplex for Advent


    I have to whine....trying to get people to learn and sing something just for four Sundays in a row once a year is what causes Catholics not to sing.

    As far as sounding Adventy or Lentish - that's applying modern music criteria to modal music. To me this is like building a fake desert or a cave in the church instead of just letting the words of the liturgy in the readings influence the people.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I wrote a Mass setting based on Conditor Alme Siderum. It sounded Adventy to me, but I don't know if anyone else noticed.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Adventy... is that a new liturgical season?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Adventy... is that a new liturgical season?

    Almost. It's the time from the day after Thanksgiving until late Christmas eve at every shopping mall in the country.
  • Adventy adj. - 1. of or resembling the liturgical season of Advent in the Christian church. Particularly common vernacular among stuffy, sarcastic musicians when discussing music selection.

    Note: Coined by Brendan Kenney c. 2013
  • At a previous parish, I had one person who, on more than one occasion, complained of my minor-key preludes as being too "Halloweeny."

    My wife now uses that term to refer to all things in minor.