taken out the presentation to Mary

Is that an official part of the Marriage Rite?

I don't have a copy of the actual rubrics for a wedding.

I think I found the problem.

To avoid these sort of issue in the future, that might be something you want to get a hold of (in print) and memorize.

The Rites: Volume 1 - Liturgical Press

You mean they do the Ave Maria at the Kiss of Peace?

This is not a hill I would die fighting on. Even if you win, you may lose. There is no mass, just a ceremony. I would do the Ave Maria and move on.

(It's really hard to make claims about the liturgical appropriateness of one thing or another if you haven't read and fully familiarized yourself with the actual texts of the Rite itself. For example: what types of song would be appropriate during the lighting of the unity candle?)

Thanks for the insights. My parish has a history of throwing its weight around, and it is a visiting priest who is celebrating the Mass. My pastor is extraordinarily busy and often unavailable. I'm still new in this position. I've been walked all over in previous situations here so this is a sensitive topic to me.

Thanks so much. These insights are very helpful. Definitely planning to formulate a policy for the future.

You're right, Ben, and it's an argument I would love to make, too. It's just not worth it. It's sad, but for now, it's something of a "no-go" area in most parishes. The best we can do is make small improvements over a long time.

Maybe I'm just lucky around here that the ordinations aren't overly planned, and are pretty much the same every time.

Well, Adam and Ben, y'all can cling to each and EVERY principle printed in black to your young hearts' content, but ChazW and ChazCA have 45 and 43 annums of real time experience with every sort of wedding travesties people can dream of, and CW is right, this is not a hill to die on. And pressing the issue to folks who are even minimally involved but litugically ignorant willfully with liturgical proprieties not only might be counterproductive, but is a fairly petulant manner by which one evangelizes.

Bemoan away. I don't believe in global warming anyway.

Bemoan away. I don't believe in global warming anyway.

I'll pray for you at the next Earth-Consciousness Rosary. We're praying The Social Mysteries this week.

The Copts have suffered greatly at the hands of those peaceful Muslims. Global warming? Only when Al Gore opens his mouth. Maybe another little ice age will chill his skivvies. But do pray for the Copts, they need it!

Well, Adam and Ben, y'all can cling to each and EVERY principle printed in black to your young hearts' content, but ChazW and ChazCA have 45 and 43 annums of real time experience with every sort of wedding travesties people can dream of, and CW is right, this is not a hill to die on. And pressing the issue to folks who are even minimally involved but litugically ignorant willfully with liturgical proprieties not only might be counterproductive, but is a fairly petulant manner by which one evangelizes.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a hill to die on. I'm just ranting.

One of these tropes are not like the others.

Also, everyone knows Agnus Dei agit-props tropes have to be mildly-christological noun-titles.

Jesus, lover of plants, etc...
Jesus, prince of offsets, etc...
Jesus, capper and trader, etc...

There you go.

Ya think?

After listening to a sermon by a Fraternity of St. Peter priest the other day, I find that my perspective on liturgical matters such as this discussion over the marriage rite has dramatically changed.

The priest was explaining how the rubrics of the traditional rite involve a moral dimension. The older Missal is clear that when a priest violates some points of the rubrics, he commits a sin, sometimes even a mortal sin if it involves serious things, like changing the words of consecration, etc.

However, in the new form of the Roman rite, it's amazing to see the difference: not only is disregarding the rubrics apparently not sinful--- it would seem that it's often the case that if you DON'T disobey the rubrics you actually risk losing your position as music director or musician.

Yes, it was eye-opening for me, too, and it "ups the ante" a little bit if you're involved in the music at the EF. Of course, most of the time I imagine the occasions where you might knowingly and deliberately violate the rubrics at an EF Mass are seldom indeed.

However, a few years ago my husband and I were part of the schola at a TLM where the elderly celebrant would direct us to drop the Kyrie and Gloria if he was planning an extra-long sermon that day. He would come up to the choir loft and tell us which part of the Mass to eliminate every Sunday. (!) We were of course very uncomfortable with the situation and tried without success to explain that you don't have any "options" like that in the Usus Antiquior. Shortly after that, the dear fellow had to go on medical leave so, thankfully, that situation ended since it was becoming a real moral crisis for our schola.

BTW, upon further research, contrary to what I wrote above, I've discovered that it is always objectively a mortal sin for a priest to violate the rubrics of the Usus Antiquior, and there is actually an old saying that “You could commit twenty-six mortal sins in the sacristy alone by not complying with the rubrics.”

The Kiss of Peace is not part of the Rite of Marriage when celebrated outside of Mass, but oftentimes the celebrant will add it--just like how they cut the Gloria when it is prescribed for the Ritual Mass.

When couples and presiders choose to extend the kiss of peace at a wedding so that everyone in the bridal party can get a flower or something, I would typically just improvise some soft organ music to segue into the Lamb of God once the fraction rite actually begins. If it's not a Mass and the Kiss of Peace is given anyways (just for the hell of it) I would normally let it go without any incidental music.

As for the real question at hand, "when to sing Ave Maria." I find it works best as a prelude, particularly when the mothers are being seating, prior to the processional.

Even when a presentation to the BVM is done within the context of the Rite (regardless of whether or not it part of Mass, and no, the presentation is not part of the Rite, nor is the unity candle) an Ave (presumably Schubert) is much too long to be practical.

Perhaps one of the Marian Antiphons, or the Gregorian Ave, or part of the Magnificat, but overall I find instrumental music works best to accompany these extra-liturgical actions. Perhaps if everyone sang a Marian hymn to invoke her intercession for the marriage, that might work, but I find a vocal solo places the focus on the performance and not the action at hand.

Similarly if a unity candle is used (and it should be discouraged as much as pastorally possible) again instrumental incidental music works best as opposed to a vocal solo which inevitably lasts longer than the 30 seconds it takes to light a candle and return to one's seat.

On a side note, has anyone effectively had the congregation sing the optional acclamation following the vows? Kind of like many such random acclamations in the RICA--it might look good on paper, but in practice it just doesn't work, unless the entire congregation shows up to a choir rehearsal.