5 top non-Office hymns
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Imagine my surprise.

    Sorry, but I can't.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    So who brought up the song's modern grammar, then, but you?

    Really, what an assumption: if someone doesn't share Fr. K's tastes, they must do so for shallow reasons!

    What incomprehension.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I'm shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    lol
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Oh, come on! I have heard far, far worse than "Lord, You Give..." Just pick up Gather Reprehensive and start with "We Are Called," if you want plenty of examples.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Exactly. Hymnal editors love this particular, um, what do you call it again, when people say theologically wrong things?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Oh, there are other people who are underwhelmed by the text of Lord You Give The Great Commission? I am relieved; I thought I was some sort of philistine or worse for failing to see its lyrical charms. To put it utterly non-technically: it reads as prose forced into lyric, kinda like Harvey Korman stuffed into Mother Marcus's girdles. (Stephen Sondheim, btw, has a great discussion about poetry and lyrics - and why great poetry does not make for great lyrics - in the foreword to his collection of lyrics). And Abbot's Leigh does not provide it lift.
    Thanked by 2Kathy Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Notice that it isn't in my favorites list. I like the tune far better than the words. But I have heard worse.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    if someone doesn't share Fr. K's tastes, they must do so for shallow reasons!

    Chonak, that is a misrepresentation of what I wrote. Certainly people have different tastes. Even a text that all who contribute to these discussions think is near perfection, there are bound to be folks who do not care for it - and not for shallow reasons.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    What was all that BS about thees and thous, then?
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    Yes, I know, we don't use hymns, we use propers.


    What do you mean? We use hymns.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I actually think most people do. On the other hand, all too often people displace the proper antiphons of the Mass with hymns. I believe this keeps the People of God from having some of the contact with the Word that they need and deserve to have.

    I think that in the best of all possible worlds, hymns would only be used at Mass in addition to the proper texts, rather than displacing them.

    The General Instruction on the Roman Missal allows for a hymn of praise after Communion, for example.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    Yes, that I agree with. I don't think propers should replace hymns. And by propers, do you mean the Entrance & Communion antiphons in the Missal?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Yes, and the Offertory in the Graduale Romanum.

    The Gradual is a more difficult case, in my opinion.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I think that in the best of all possible worlds, hymns would only be used at Mass in addition to the proper texts, rather than displacing them.

    This.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    My ideal...

    Gathering Hymn (people stand and sing pre-determined - if not all - verses)
    Celebrant enters during last verse and waits at foot of altar or waits until...
    Introit

    I'm okay with a well-written Responsorial Psalm. I don't need to do the Gradual all the time, but it would be good on solemnities, etc.

    Offertory antiphon, followed by choral music or improvisation (or Offertory verses if possible). I believe more and more strongly congregational singing at Offertory is an awkward fit at best.

    Communion antiphon begins as celebrant, then EMHCS, receive. Ideally, this lasts as long as communion, using verses, but I can foresee transitioning to something more congregational like Andrew Motyka's communion antiphons.

    Hymn of Praise after tabernacle door is closed.

    Closing Hymn at end.

    Almost all the typical propers, almost all the expected hymns, and I don't know about you, but I don't feel "stuffed" either.
    Thanked by 3Kathy Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I think Skirp's end of Mass is too packed full of stuff. Do the hymn after Communion or the Recessional hymn. Not both.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I should never fault a hymn because it had no thees and thous, especially if they were (probably) improperly used just for the effect of historical (I did not say 'archaic') English. On the other hand, I rather loathe those persons who calously purge them from older hymns as a matter of policy, vainly imagining their judgment to be irreproachable.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Gavin
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I think Skirp's end of Mass is too packed full of stuff. Do the hymn after Communion or the Recessional hymn. Not both.


    Yes... I've done that too, and I think it's probably better, but only when I have a good organist around. I'm not an organist, so trust me, it would be better to sing a verse or two of a hymn than listen to me play a postlude.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I've done that too, and I think it's probably better, but only when I have a good organist around. I'm not an organist, so trust me, it would be better to sing a verse or two of a hymn than listen to me play a postlude.

    I've been gifted with likely the finest organist in or diocese and probably region for 20 years, and he's also an improvisational genius to boot. I don't know why for the first nineteen years (except when not having an instrument for him) we sang recessionals. We swapped them for postludes and have never looked back. And he feeds the choir/schola with such sweet music.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    A couple of days ago, I made a list of the hymns that had been suggested, together with the number of times (first column) they were listed as a top hymn. There were 81 hymns, of which 21 (I think) got mentioned more than once.

    1 - Abide with ne: fast falls the eventide (EVENTIDE 10 10. 10 10)
    1 - Ah! Holy Jesus (HERZLIEBSTER JESU)
    2 - All Creatures of Our God and King (Lasst Uns Erfreuen)
    1 - All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name
    1 - All my hope on God is founded (MICHAEL) Howells
    2 - At the Lamb's High Feast We Sing (Salzburg 77. 77 D)
    1 - Be still, my soul (FINLANDIA)
    1 - Be Thou my vision
    [1 - Behold! The great creator makes | himself a house of clay (This Endris Nyght)]
    1 - Christ, the fair glory of the holy angels (Coelites plaudant)
    4 - Come down, O Love divine (DOWN AMPNEY, 66 11 D) Vaughan Williams
    1 - Come Holy Ghost (LAMBILLOTTE)
    1 - Come, My Way, My Truth, My Life (THE CALL)
    1 - Come, Ye Thankful People Come (ST GEORGE'S WINDSOR)
    1 - Comfort, Comfort Ye my People
    1 - Creator of the Stars of Night
    3 - Crown Him with Many Crowns
    1 - Dear Lord and Father of Mankind - Repton
    1 - Father, We Thank Thee, Who Hast Planted (Rendez a Dieu, 98. 98 D)
    2 - For All The Saints (SINE NOMINE)
    1 - Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken
    1 - Go, Labor On
    1 - God is love (ABBOT'S LEIGH)
    1 - God of Our Fathers
    1 - God We Praise You
    2 - Guide me, O thou great Redeemer (CWM RONNDA) Hughes
    1 - Hail, Queen of heav'n, the ocean star (Stella)
    3 - Hail thee, festival day (SALVE FESTA DIES) Vaughan Williams
    1 - Hark! A thrilling voice is sounding (Merton)
    1 - He Who Would True Valour See - Monk's Gate
    1 - Holy God, We Praise Thy Name
    2 - Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord God Almighty (Nicea)
    1 - How Can I Keep From Singing?
    1 - I Know that My Redeemer Lives
    1 - Immortal Invisible, God Only Wise - St Denio
    1 - Jesus lives! Thy terrors now (St Albinus)
    1 - Jesus Shall Reign (Duke Street)
    2 - Lead Kindly Light (SANDON)
    2 - Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence
    1 - Let All the World in Every Corner Sing -Luckington
    2 - Let thy blood in mercy poured (RASMUS, 78. 78. 77) Giffen
    1 - Lift Up Ye Heads, Ye Mighty Gates
    1 - Lord, enthroned in heav'nly splendour (Bryn Calfaria)
    1 - Lord of All Hopefulness
    1 - Lorica of St. Patrick/I Clasp Unto My Heart (as found in Pius X and HPSC)
    1 - Love Divine, All Loves Excelling (Hyfrydol)
    1 - Morning Glory, Starlit Sky
    1 - Most high, omnipotent good Lord (Assisi)... see no. 307 in the 1940
    3 - My Song Is Love Unknown (LOVE UNKNOWN)
    2 - Now Thank We All Our God (NUN DANKET)
    1 - O bless the Lord, my soul (ASIA) Wm. Billings
    1 - O come, all ye faithful (Adeste Fideles)
    1 - O For a Thousand Tongues using Jarman's Lyngham
    1 - O Food of Exiles Lowly (Innsbruck, 776. 778)
    1 - O God Almighty Father
    1 - O God, beyond all praising (THAXTED)
    1 - O God, Our Help in Ages Past (St. Anne)
    1 - O Love, How Deep, How Broad, How High (Deus Tuorum Militum, L.M.)
    3 - O Praise Ye the Lord (HANOVER, LAUDATE DOMINUM) CHH Parry
    1 - O Sacred Head, surrounded (PASSION CHORALE)
    3 - Of the Father's Love Begotten
    4 - Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven (Lauda Anima)
    1 - Praise to the holiest in the height (Billings)
    4 - Praise to the Lord, the Almighty (Lobe den Herren, 14 14. 478)
    1 - Rejoice, the Lord Is King (Darwall's 148th, 66. 66. 88)
    1 - Sing Praise to God Who Reigns Above (Mit freuden Zart, 87. 87. 887)
    4 - Soul of my saviour (Anima christi)
    2 - Spirit Seeking Light and Beauty (DOMHNACH TRIONOIDE)
    1 - Take Up Your Cross
    1 - Tell out my soul (WOODLANDS) Greatorex
    1 - The Church's one foundation (Aurelia)
    2 - The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended (ST. CLEMENT) Scholefield
    1 - The head that once was crowned with thorns (St Magnus)
    2 - The King of Love My Shepherd Is (SAINT COLUMBA)
    1 - Thine Is the Glory
    1 - 'Tis Winter Now (DANBY)
    1 - To Jesus Christ, Our Sovereign King (Ich glaub an Gott, 87. 87 with refrain 558)
    1 - To Mock Your Reign, O Dearest Lord (Green/THE THIRD TUNE)
    1 - While shepherds watched their flocks by night (Winchester Old)
    1 - Ye holy angels bright (Darwall's 148th)
    1 - Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones

    I added the [missing one from MJO].
    Thanked by 3JulieColl Kathy chonak
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    People who prefer O Praise Ye the Lord to LAUDATE DOMINUM instead of HANOVER are very wrong people.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    1 - Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones


    I can't believe I was the only one who mentioned this. (Although "All Creatures" did get 2).
    Thanked by 2Gavin Mad_Dan_Eccles
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I just copied tunes when I saw them, as I felt that the way the thread was intended was somewhat more text-oriented than tune-oriented (when push comes to shove). That said, I was pleasantly surprised by the results. I.e., I know nearly all the hymns, had a hand in the tune for one, and think that the list provides the basis for assembling a commendable selection of hymns for congregational use - the beginnings of a hymnal project?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "I don't think propers should replace hymns."

    They shouldn't. Ever. It would be very silly to replace the Gloria (a hymn) with the Introit, or the day's Office hymn with the Communion of the Mass of the Day.

    Nor should hymns replace propers, such as the Introit.
    Thanked by 2Ben Adam Wood
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Did somebody say "Hymnal project"???

    Please count me in on that! Wouldn't it be lovely to have a Catholic hymnal that met all your expectations and more? I've thumbed through about a hundred hymnals and never found one that satisfied me, although The Anglican Hymnal 1982 comes close.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I don't think propers should replace hymns.


    You may feel that way, but what does the church have to say about it?

    Do you really feel that the words of God should never replace the words of men?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Did somebody say "Hymnal project"???

    Hmm. Perhaps you are thinking of the forthcoming Lumen Christi Hymnal?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I was thinking in the original meaning of hymnal ... a book of hymns.

    One can debate what else might be included, but my suggestion was aimed at a hymnbook without all the non-musical trappings that force present day "hymnals" to provide a rather scant, incomplete selection of sturdy hymns.

    Edit: For years and years, Anglicans got along with the Book of Common Prayer and a separate Hymnal devoted to music. I liked that then, and I would love something like it for the Roman Catholic rite.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Yes, Chuck, I think you meant the forthcoming Lumen Christi Hymnal.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Nor should hymns replace propers, such as the Introit.

    But they most assuredly and most legitimately may replace the propers according to the particular liturgical law for the United States of America, as enshrined in GIRM, nos. 48, 61, 74, and 87, found in the front of editions of the English translation of MR3 published in the United States.

    So I take it that your "should" is an expression of what you would like liturgical law for the USA to say, even though it does not actually say that.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I think you meant the forthcoming Lumen Christi Hymnal.

    Haven't seen it yet ... but then I'm not an insider.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Yes, sturdy, singable, sustaining hymns--the brightest and best, to quote Fr. Rutler.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Enshrined my big toe. Liturgical law can change.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Enshrined my big toe.

    One wonders who or what the subject of this predicate applies to.
    I enshrined Kathy's big toe.
    You enshrined Kathy's big toe.
    He/She/It enshrined Kathy's big toe.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    hahahahahahaha

    About the Hymnal: I wouldn't blame anyone who's skeptical. We've certainly been let down many times before.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Re: propers vs hymns:

    Can do and should to are two vastly different things. You can sing the same responsorial psalm most every Sunday in Ordinary time. Doesn't mean you should.

    You can replace propers with hymns, but....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I don't understand this either/or propers or hymns. Do both! Granted, you may drop a proper or hymn on occasion, as I do, when things don't go as planned. But try to do both.
  • Mad_Dan_EcclesMad_Dan_Eccles
    Posts: 51
    For years and years, Anglicans got along with the Book of Common Prayer and a separate Hymnal devoted to music. I liked that then, and I would love something like it for the Roman Catholic rite.


    For PIPs perhaps but until the digital revolution the choir stalls were usually rather well stuffed in many parish churches.

    BCP
    Hymnal
    Psalter, pointed - sometimes additional chant either loose leaf or bound
    A well used copy of the Church Anthem Book and maybe another collection as well
    Miscellaneous services

    Some skillful juggling was called for to preserve the proper dignity when the text was in one book and the tune in another especially when some of the books seemed bigger than the boys holding them.

  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "So I take it that your "should" is an expression of what you would like liturgical law for the USA to say, even though it does not actually say that."

    I wouldn't even go that far. I just think that it's better, the law being what it is.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Here's the list sorted by tune names. Where the tune wasn't specified, I filled in the most common tune name from Hymnary.

    One hymn had no clear leader: "Take Up Your Cross" is apparently set to several melodies, and the one I know, "Brescali", isn't listed at Hymnary.org, though they have a scan of it.

    Anyway, we had few duplications: two each of DARWALL'S 148TH, DUKE STREET, LASST UNS ERFREUEN, and SLANE.

    1 - God is love (ABBOT'S LEIGH)
    1 - O come, all ye faithful (Adeste Fideles)
    4 - Soul of my saviour (Anima christi)
    1 - O bless the Lord, my soul (ASIA) Wm. Billings
    1 - Most high, omnipotent good Lord (Assisi)... see no. 307 in the 1940
    1 - The Church's one foundation (Aurelia)
    1 - Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken (AUSTRIAN HYMN)
    1 - Praise to the holiest in the height (Billings)
    1 - Lord, enthroned in heav'nly splendour (Bryn Calfaria)
    1 - Christ, the fair glory of the holy angels (Coelites plaudant)
    1 - Creator of the Stars of Night (CONDITOR ALME SIDERUM)
    1 - All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name (CORONATION)
    2 - Guide me, O thou great Redeemer (CWM RONNDA) Hughes
    1 - 'Tis Winter Now (DANBY)
    1 - Ye holy angels bright (Darwall's 148th)
    1 - Rejoice, the Lord Is King (Darwall's 148th, 66. 66. 88)
    1 - O Love, How Deep, How Broad, How High (Deus Tuorum Militum, L.M.)
    3 - Crown Him with Many Crowns (DIADEMATA)
    3 - Of the Father's Love Begotten (DIVINUM MYSTERIUM)
    2 - Spirit Seeking Light and Beauty (DOMHNACH TRIONOIDE)
    4 - Come down, O Love divine (DOWN AMPNEY, 66 11 D) Vaughan Williams
    1 - I Know that My Redeemer Lives (DUKE STREET)
    1 - Jesus Shall Reign (Duke Street)
    1 - Take Up Your Cross (ERHALT UNS? QUEBEC? BOURBON? GERMANY? BRESCALI?)
    1 - Abide with ne: fast falls the eventide (EVENTIDE 10 10. 10 10)
    1 - Be still, my soul (FINLANDIA)
    1 - Comfort, Comfort Ye my People (FREU DICH SEHR)
    1 - O God Almighty Father (GOTT VATER SEI GEPRIESEN)
    1 - To Mock Your Reign, O Dearest Lord (Green/THE THIRD TUNE)
    1 - Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (GROSSER GOTT)
    3 - O Praise Ye the Lord (HANOVER, LAUDATE DOMINUM) CHH Parry
    1 - Ah! Holy Jesus (HERZLIEBSTER JESU)
    1 - How Can I Keep From Singing? (HOW CAN I KEEP FROM SINGING)
    1 - Love Divine, All Loves Excelling (Hyfrydol)
    1 - To Jesus Christ, Our Sovereign King (Ich glaub an Gott, 87. 87 with refrain 558)
    1 - O Food of Exiles Lowly (Innsbruck, 776. 778)
    1 - O For a Thousand Tongues using (Jarman's Lyngham)
    1 - Thine Is the Glory (JUDAS MACCABAEUS)
    1 - Come Holy Ghost (LAMBILLOTTE)
    2 - All Creatures of Our God and King (Lasst Uns Erfreuen)
    1 - Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones (Lasst Uns Erfreuen)
    4 - Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven (Lauda Anima)
    4 - Praise to the Lord, the Almighty (Lobe den Herren, 14 14. 478)
    3 - My Song Is Love Unknown (LOVE UNKNOWN)
    1 - Let All the World in Every Corner Sing -(Luckington)
    1 - Hark! A thrilling voice is sounding (Merton)
    1 - All my hope on God is founded (MICHAEL) Howells
    1 - Sing Praise to God Who Reigns Above (Mit freuden Zart, 87. 87. 887)
    1 - He Who Would True Valour See - (Monk's Gate)
    1 - Morning Glory, Starlit Sky (MONKLAND)
    1 - God of Our Fathers (NATIONAL HYMN)
    2 - Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord God Almighty (Nicea)
    2 - Now Thank We All Our God (NUN DANKET)
    1 - O Sacred Head, surrounded (PASSION CHORALE)
    1 - Go, Labor On (PENTECOST)
    2 - Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence (PICARDY)
    2 - Let thy blood in mercy poured (RASMUS, 78. 78. 77) Giffen
    1 - Father, We Thank Thee, Who Hast Planted (Rendez a Dieu, 98. 98 D)
    1 - Dear Lord and Father of Mankind – (Repton)
    1 - God We Praise You (RUSTINGTON)
    2 - The King of Love My Shepherd Is (SAINT COLUMBA)
    3 - Hail thee, festival day (SALVE FESTA DIES) Vaughan Williams
    2 - At the Lamb's High Feast We Sing (Salzburg 77. 77 D)
    2 - Lead Kindly Light (SANDON)
    2 - For All The Saints (SINE NOMINE)
    1 - Be Thou my vision (SLANE) (or...?)
    1 - Lord of All Hopefulness (SLANE)
    1 - Jesus lives! Thy terrors now (St Albinus)
    1 - Immortal Invisible, God Only Wise - (St Denio)
    1 - Come, Ye Thankful People Come (ST GEORGE'S WINDSOR)
    1 - The head that once was crowned with thorns (St Magnus)
    1 - Lorica of St. Patrick/I Clasp Unto My Heart, as found in Pius X and HPSC (ST PATRICK)
    1 - O God, Our Help in Ages Past (St. Anne)
    2 - The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended (ST. CLEMENT) Scholefield
    1 - Hail, Queen of heav'n, the ocean star (Stella)
    1 - O God, beyond all praising (THAXTED)
    1 - Come, My Way, My Truth, My Life (THE CALL)
    1 - Behold! The great creator makes | himself a house of clay (This Endris Nyght)
    1 - Lift Up Ye Heads, Ye Mighty Gates (TRURO)
    1 - While shepherds watched their flocks by night (Winchester Old)
    1 - Tell out my soul (WOODLANDS) Greatorex

    [updated: added one more]
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    You both missed THIS ENDRIS NYGHT.

    Interesting that out of all the participants here no hymn got cited more than four times, and most only once. This isn't necessarily bad: the diversity of good choices is heartening.
    Thanked by 2Mad_Dan_Eccles CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    There; that makes 81. Can anyone run through the list and tell what time periods were covered by the texts and tunes? There's at least one cheater in the list, the office hymn "Creator of the stars of night"; and the text of "O God beyond all praising" is from 1982, so the span is considerable.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Are any of those American, other than (my pick) How Can I Keep From Singing?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    "Take up your cross" is by Charles W. Everest, from the U.S.A. (Connecticut most, if not all, his life).
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That was also my pick.
    So that's two from me.

    hrmm...
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Father, We Thank Thee--F. Bland Tucker, born in Norfolk, VA
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    "Father, we thank thee who hast planted" is a translation by F. Bland Tucker, a Virginian through and through.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Jinx!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Liam's Longfellow hymn.
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