First welcome! and glad you are here! This is an excellent place to come to ask all sorts of questions, because it's likely that someone will have the answer and/or everyone will have an opinion. :) --(And someone else may have the same question.)

I'll start with my opinion. If you've got a choir and the congregation sings well, it's been my experience a cantor is not needed for every piece that the congregation sings. You will need one for solo verses, but they need not do everything up front, separated from the choir.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) and the US Bishops' document "Sing to the Lord" also makes a distinction between 'cantor' and 'psalmist.' A psalmist basically, is the cantor who sings the verses of the Responsorial Psalm. The distinction is that there needs to be a real ability in a psalmist to sing the texts clearly and not merely lead the people. The psalmist, in this case, should sing from the ambo, the place where the readings are proclaimed.

For some background, the GIRM describes the cantor's role in paragraph 104:

104. I t is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to direct and support the people’s singing. Indeed, when there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to direct the different chants, with the people taking the part proper to them.

And this references paragraph 21 of the 1967 Vatican document Musicam Sacram:

21. Provision should be made for at least one or two properly trained singers, especially where there is no possibility of setting up even a small choir. The singer will present some simpler musical settings, with the people taking part, and can lead and support the faithful as far as is needed. The presence of such a singer is desirable even in churches which have a choir, for those celebrations in which the choir cannot take part but which may fittingly be performed with some solemnity and therefore with singing.

If we look back further into the Mass as celebrated before Vatican II, cantors were members of the choir responsible for starting the first phrase of each chant, and singing solo verses. Which takes you back to the opinion I started with!

cmbearer,

First, welcome.

SkirpR and I don't seem to agree on much, but we do agree on almost all he wrote.

Remember that a cantor's job is to sing a particular part, assigned to him by the choir director, in accord with his skill and the requirements of the liturgy.

SkirpR is quite right that what is now called a cantor is, in reality, two distinct positions blended (infelicitously, in my opinion) into one. In no case is the "signalling the touchdown" or "landing the C-130" approach appropriate, for two reasons: 1) the cues can be aural, and should be; 2) the congregation is participating at Mass, not a sing-along.

In the proper understanding of a cantor, yes, he is necessary even in singing congregations. In non-singing congregations, the cantor-as-cheerleader must be avoided, in my opinion, because he makes himself the center of attention, which thereby violates the rite itself (flying-fish puppets notwithstanding).

Helpful anecdote: many years ago, I served as a section leader in a choir. The parish sang well. The building helped the singing. I was never assigned "big" roles, but when it came to singing the Litany of the Saints, I was asked to sing it. This is the role of a cantor, not a "song leader". On the other hand, a singer who fancies himself a soloist (and I've known some) should be kept from the cantor's role because self-agrandisement is utterly incompatible with the nature of the liturgy.

The cantor / congregation dynamic realizes a sort of dialectic reasoning and meditation. A prayerful energy of proclaiming and musing. Questions and answers. contrasting public and intimate thoughts, argument and resolution. Each verse approaches theme of the antiphon from different perspectives. The structure of the psalms tones, both old and new, along with their modal tone of voice support the rhetorical role of the cantor.

Welcome, cmbearer! While we're on the topic of cantors, I'll take the opportunity to mention our cantrix, Valeria, who intones all the propers at our EF Missa Cantata. She also intones the parts of the Ordinary.

She has an otherworldy, pure, clear soprano voice and is the soul of cooperation, charity, modesty and piety.

Our schola/choir/congregation would be lost without her.

Scream away. This isn't a matter of orthodoxy. It simply looks ridiculous. As for the touchdown being a caricature, I've personally seen it far too many times, in far too many churches, to consider it a caricature. Nor would I use caricatures...the reality of liturgical silliness is sometimes sad enough without exaggeration. In addition, there is a vast great difference between a slight indication of the hand, and the big swooping gesture.

Moving on...I disagree with your opinion that non-musicians can't pick up on musical cues.

I live in a small rural town. Our congregation has a number of non-musical members of varying ages.

As I stated before, our cantor sings the psalm from the choir loft and has been doing so for several years now. The congregation cannot see the cantor, and yet...this same congregation has not had any difficulty discerning when to sing. Even though the psalm is sometimes sung without accompaniment.

As usual...YMMV.

The cantor does not belong in the loft, Wendi, but in the front. Say the black, do the red ... Remember that? Even when you disagree with it personally.

I see nothing silly about outstretched arms. I don't think it looks silly, is silly, or is against norms. Having the cantor in the loft is, however against norms. And it's also silly, making the psalmist sound like the voice of Oz.

Finally, mass in a "small rural town" is different than in a large city church with parishioners, visitors, and people from all over who come, as is my situation.

I've found that when singing acapella, if you sing it clearly, with appropriate phrasing, the congregation does not have trouble singing. I've had this experience (me singing the psalm acapella, without gestures, usually from loft/behind them) with at least three distinct congregations of varying musical ability, and all of them reacted very similarly: they did just fine.

I've found that those who have trouble are the ones who want to have trouble.

And if it's accompanied, it only gets easier from there.

One problem with the cantor not being near the organist.

Isn't this a deja-vu thread? We've waltzed around this issue before.

If people don't know when to say an antiphon in the Responsorial Psalm after it's been in use for 40 years, maybe that tells us that the whole idea is not well-structured, and we ought to try some options other than the conventional one. I'm tired of seeing the lector at my local church raise his hand to signal the people, as if he were politely answering a question in class.

I put my cantors in the choir loft some years ago. The organ is half a city block from the front and it is difficult to keep instrument and cantor together in a live acoustic. Besides, it prevents the tendency to perform on the part of the cantors. Even the pastor said they were distracting when in the front. The choir loft is "another suitable place" in my building, so we are within the GIRM requirements. The congregation has no problems with our setup.

Even in our daily masses, when the psalm is recited, the lector offers a visual signal for the PiPs to respond, although they seem to do it with much less confidence than our cantor/psalmists on Sunday, like its a very uncomfortable gesture. I agree that everyone should already know when to sing the antiphon for the psalm. So if any gesture is needed, it should be small. Perhaps the bigger the church, the bigger the gesture. But let's separate the role of psalmist from cantor. In my goal to bring better Sacred Music to my parish, is there a place for the cantor aside from psalmist? Lately, I have been trying to have the cantors not sing from the microphone as much. They were trained before I came, to be there for everything that was sung (and to gesture) including the response "and with your spirit", if Fr. chanted "The Lord be with you". I think this is too much. It is my understanding that the cantor or priest or deacon intones many of chants that we sing, but then sings as a part of the worshiping faithful (i.e. not facing them from behind a mic). For hymns, is a song leader necessary? Wouldn't the preceding cadence and the "breath" from the organ suffice to bring people in? I think even non-musical people can hear a final cadence and anticipate the next entrance, when done properly. Thank you all for the advice, and the welcoming atmosphere. I look forward to the spirited discussions!

I think it important to bring up the fact that the TYPES of hymns chosen probably reflect the relative need of a cantor up front with gestures.
I think many who are in favor of a cantor that is not visible are more well rooted in true traditional hymnody than those that are in favor of a visible cantor. I say this not to validate or condemn either approach, but that I have observed this to be the truth. (Correct me if you have observed differently.)

It is MUCH easier to solidly lead a traditional hymn (Holy God We Praise Thy Name, for instance) from the organ with the congregation singing confidently without visible, amplified cantor. Try the same techniques with "On Eagle's Wings," and you might as well play a solo organ piece in its place if the cantor is not up front because it is much more difficult to employ "hymn playing" techniques on "songs," to give the congregation a natural musical inclination to sing without a visual cue. That's not to say a skilled organist COULDN'T do so, just that it is more difficult.

At my parish, we are not yet at the point where I can program exclusively traditional hymns or chants and still need to incorporate some of the sing-songy emotional stuff and so our cantor is up front. With arms. And announcements. ...

For the record, though, I do think the fact that the GIRM and STTL reference the Psalmist and Cantor as two separate ministries indicates a clear preference that the psalm be proclaimed from where the rest of the word of God is proclaimed. By indicating a Psalmist, the documents are not binding the CANTOR to any one place in particular. They can, in fact, be two different people.

The issue of gesturing and placement would be more clear if Cantors who make announcements wore the proper, traditional vestments for that office.

@chonak

If people don't know when to say an antiphon in the Responsorial Psalm after it's been in use for 40 years, maybe that tells us that the whole idea is not well-structured,

I can't count how many times I've seen confusion arise where the text of the response recurs within one of the verses.

How many chants can a cantor chant if a cantor can't chant chant?

I'm not particularly fond of solo singing; but to me 'solo singing' means things like the Schubert (or worse, Rosewig) "Ave Maria" or the like. Having a single cantor chant the communion (from the Gradual, SEP, etc.) is not, to my mind, 'solo singing'; however, singing an 'aria' setting the proper text (say, by Vivaldi) would be.

I am a little doubtful about how well it fits with the ritual though. The more I think about it the more it seems as though the congregation should be encouraged to repeat the antiphon even if the verses are sung by a single voice. In this way it is more properly antiphonal singing, rather than solo recitation.

(I need to decide by next week, first time in a new context: Summer, no choir, Sunday Mass with hymns, but nothing programmed for Communion.)

I don't see any problems in singing the propers alone. In fact it is the only possibility in my area to have Gregorian chant sung at all in my environment.

Me, I don't like solo singing, neither doing it nor hearing it, except when the liturgy naturally calls for it (eg at the Gradual, readings, dialogues). What about you all?

I agree. Especially regarding GIRM 48, 74, 87, and 88, the rubrics explicitly exclude singing by a cantor alone (unlike GIRM 61 and 62 in which the rubrics do allow for singing by a cantor alone).

I believe that occasional solo art song singing may be permissible for pastoral reasons, such as for funerals (although even then I still believe it is less-than-ideal and should be a rarity). When the rubrics specify that singing should take place "by the choir alone or by the choir or a cantor with the people" as stated in GIRM 87, then when a cantor is singing, it should be something that is at least possible for the people to join their voices in singing, such as the antiphon or some other suitable liturgical chant.

1. Insofar as liturgical abuses are actions or situations which do not follow the rubrics, solo singing is a liturgical abuse when it is not an explicitly stated option for that moment at Mass.

2. I believe it is even more of a liturgical abuse at a choir Mass when the choir is present and must remain seated and silent while the soloist is singing. (I am referring to a solo-only piece, not a solo part within a choir piece.)

3. SkirpR had an earlier posting about the location of the cantor, and quoted this part of GIRM 61: "sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place." At least with the location issue, "another suitable place" is a stated option. Solo art song singing during/after Communion or at Offertory is not a stated option.

4. Likewise, GIRM 88 is clear that once the last person has received Communion, if the silence option is not taken, the only option for singing is "by the whole congregation," not the choir or a soloist.

I'll add to this, if for whatever reason the same schola is present but may not have been able to learn one of the propers, e.g. the Offertory, capably, but there is one person who could do a suitable job, that person should sing it solo rather than omit it.

I have been cantor now for about 7 years and a choir member for more than 30. I grew up in a very devotional parish St. Mary. I learned to sing Latin hymns and vernacular hymns to the Saints, Blessed Sacrament, Sacred Heart and Blessed Mother, not to mention Latin Masses, like Our Lady of Loretto, Mass in G and many others. St. Basil, St. Gregory, Sisters of Notre Dame, etc. Four years ago, my parish closed as part of a diocesan reconfiguration. I now attend a more contemporary church, St. Paul where I cantor, sing in the choir, the schola and funeral choir. Shortly after I arrived a new music director was appointed and in February of this year we got a new pastor. Since the appointment of our new music director we have been introducing Latin in the Mass parts, very slowly at first. During Advent and Lent we sing the mass parts in Latin. This past month we practiced with the congregation before mass, the Gloria from the Mass of the Angels.

My role as a cantor in this case, was to chant the Gloria, phrase by phrase and have the congregation repeat each phrase after me. Once we got through that we went straight through the Gloria just as we would for Mass. We did this for several weeks until finally, some members of the congregation asked the pastor "when are we going to start using the Gloria and stop practicing it?" This past Sunday we started using the Gloria in the Mass.

In my diocese we sing the Responsorial Psalm from the ambo. Some of the other cantors can set the music on the ambo and read directly from it, and give the two-arms up to bring the congregation in. I can't do this simply because with my bifocals I can't read that far away, so I hold the music in one hand and bring them in with the other. I try to make it a point to know the psalm well enough that I can sing and make eye contact with members of the congregation.

As a cantor, it's very important to know the psalm or hymn, pronounce the words and stand the appropriate distance from the mic. It's also important to have a positive attitude, a good personality, willingness to learn new songs, and patience.

One of my other roles is to help introduce new songs and announce the hymn numbers. We have both organ and piano and a cantor practice once a month. Our music director is willing to make a CD of the Psalm Responses and any new songs we cantors aren't familiar with. We have 5 cantors, ranging from youth cantors to more mature like myself. The CD's have been a godsend for me being a more traditional/devotional singer working my way into a contemporary setting. I sure do miss the the devotional hymns. I also follow a blog, The Devotional Hymns Project - http://www.catholicdevotionalhymns.com/

That's the role of the cantor in my parish.

... and maybe the verse; and maybe (NO) the statement of the psalm response and the alleluia.

On the Psalm in particular: the point was made in another thread recently that the cultivation of solo singing for the Psalm and Alleluia seems to do more harm than good.

(cutting/pasting from the other topic … )

It does indeed task the DoM with coaching and training individuals as solo singers … which requires either sacrificing choral rehearsal time or meeting independently, for which there is seldom time.

A few parishes ago, I had the cantors prepare the psalm and alleluia on their own. That usually worked well enough, but when it didn’t it was problematic finding time to coach people. The number of cantors there, even in a parish of >4,000 households, was fairly small—the end result of which being that I either had to accept the occasoinal “iffy” solo singing (all amplified, of course) and get complaints from the pastor, or to sing more Masses myself. (There were staff accompanists; I generally only conducted or sang.)

I do quite a bit of solo singing myself at the Mass now, but only as an expedience until I can find the right “balance” to have the choir singing all of the Propers in full. (Richard Rice’s “Simple Latin Propers” are a huge aid toward this end!)

I feel this is a topic that merits more discussion: what are the best alternatives to having a solo cantor for the chants between the readings? What are the contexts in which use of such is indicated? All things being equal, would the liturgy be better off if, somehow, the rubrical emphasis on the Lectionary texts at the expense of those from the Graduale were reversed?

there is a vast great difference between a slight indication of the hand, and the big swooping gesture.

This, and the fact that if your cantor is particularly perturbed about some issue, the gesture can telegraph that to the congregation and they'll be able to tell they're upset about something. Not a common occurrence, I know, but I've seen it happen (I told one of my cantors she couldn't transpose the offertory hymn because the choir parts would go too low and she got upset about it when the accompanist backed me up and refused to do it anyway).

As for me, I don't normally use gestures unless they have a problem knowing when to come in. I will always give the congregation the benefit of the doubt and allow them to come in on their own. If they prove that they can't do it by themselves, I will then add a small gesture to indicate it, but if and ONLY IF they show me that they require it.

Something also must be said about avoiding the "autopilot" syndrome. I believe that many cantors develop habits (like we all do), and go on "autopilot," meaning they do things without thinking about why or if the desired effect is being achieved (or even the effectiveness of the practice: if the congregation comes in BECAUSE of the cantor's gesture, or because they know when to come in ALREADY, and don't need it). If the cantor is giving a gesture that is unnecessary, it should probably be eliminated until it becomes necessary again. Reflection on one's practices makes one a better practitioner. Flexibility is important, too: if the cantor can't/doesn't pay attention to what is going on with the congregation, they probably shouldn't be cantoring.

There is absolutely in a church of any size no reason why the cantor must cant from the front of the church.

There is no reason to ever "cue" singers. If they are not following the words they are not going to sing no matter what.

If an organist or a cantor are not capable of indicating by playing or singing when it is time for the people to sing, they should not be playing or singing.

The traditional role of the cantor was to intone chants, setting both the pitch and the speed of the chant.

May we return to this now, please.