An Ancient Mass (Knighthood)
  • ScapularScapular
    Posts: 8
    I am looking for evidence that the Catholic Church conducted Masses for the purpose of granting knighthood. This is probably relevant to the period 800 - 1500 A.D. I have searched for this for years and found nothing. Perhaps there is a scholar whom I can contact with questions like this.

    Archbishop Chaput once wrote a piece on the restoration of christian knighthood in the current age. Facing long held feminization of the Church, there are some of us who think about these things.

    Thanks for your suggestions!
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I would be interested in this as well. Our parish is currently exploring options for our boys, to replace our Scouting program.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Over at the Knights of Columbus' website, I found an article on medieval knighthood (but not the Mass per se); at the bottom of the article was this line:

    Thomas J. Craughwell holds a doctorate in medieval English literature and has authored numerous books about the saints. He writes from Bethel, Conn.

    I would see if you can discover where he teaches, and contact him, since he's the author of the relevant article.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    I wonder if a search through the Cantus Database, or the Analecta Hymnica may find something...
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    My instincts tell me that the notion of votive Masses for occasions like this are a modern (that is, post-Vat II) innovation. If you were to look anywhere, however, I would suggest starting with episcopal ceremonials.

    Just my two cents.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Scapular, are you familiar with the "Knights of the Most Precious Blood" group? I believe that they were possibly in Connecticut? The following video is of a knighting ceremony:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-RiC8xboG8

    I was in communication two years ago with the gentlemen in charge. I will send his email info to your forum message box. Perhaps he would have some answers to your questions? Unfortunately, I see that the group's old website is not accessible (they had a very nice knight's handbook posted on there).
    http://vimeo.com/20337576
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I sent this question to Prof. Michael Foley (Baylor), who studies the origin and meaning of Catholic customs, and he wrote back:

    Unfortunately, I did not come across anything pertaining to knighthood conferral in the Middle Ages, but I have a 19th century Pontificale Romanum, and under the section "On the Blessing of a New Knight" it says:

    "To create a new knight, he can be blessed any day, place, or time; but if he is to be created within the solemnity of the Mass, the Bishop does so after the end/dismissal of Mass [finita Missa] either in the vestments in which he has celebrated the Mass or in which he took part, at the faldstool in front of the middle of the altar, either standing or sitting, as is convenient. But if it is outside the Mass, the Bishop is to wear a stole..."

    And so on. The rite itself is pretty straightforward, with a string of prayers and blessings of the knight but no instructions for music or musical opportunities, such as a psalm or litany. This edition is from the 19th century (1845) as I said, but my guess, and it is only that, is that the medieval equivalent would not have been that different. And I suspect the administration of it would have been a lot like the sacrament of confirmation, which could be accompanied by a Eucharistic liturgy, but probably more often than not wasn't. Hope that helps.

    Medieval editions of the Pontificale would be a good place to start for more accurate info.
  • ScapularScapular
    Posts: 8
    Excellent!

    Many thanks!!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The "golden age" of real knights (to the extent there ever was one) predates Trent, and thus predates the standardization of liturgy that took place therein.

    If I were to embark on this strain of research, I would probably look into Crusades-era sources in France and England (Gallican and Sarum Rites, among others) and also the liturgical practices of the militant orders, such as the Templars and Hospitallers (and the myriad similar but less famous ones).

    I'd also check out Anglican sources, as the Established Church likely (again, a guess) continued with or restored some version of this sort of thing along with the rest of its (useless and ridiculous) State-religion Ceremonial.

    Similarly, I suspect the Holy Roman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire had some formal pomp and circumstance related to this sort of thing, and in a late enough period of history that there would be good records of it.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Unless you plan to actually make war on the infidel, I would think that a pseudo-knighthood organization would turn into silliness and dress-up.

    Definitely NOT cf. The Knights of Columbus, who are very serious, and not silly in any way. At all.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    Maybe a group like the Knights of Malta would know.
  • ScapularScapular
    Posts: 8
    Yes, one could look at the investiture of Knights of the Holy Sepluchre.

    The Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem is the only lay institution of the Vatican State charged with the task of providing for the needs of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem and for all the activities and initiatives which are necessary to support the Christian presence in the Holy Land. The contributions made by its members throughout the world are therefore the Patriarchate's institutions' main source of funding.

    That said, they do vest, but I don't think it is silly.

    My interest surrounds the loss of masculine initiation and therefore a loss of meaning and identity that would create a greater association between young men and their Christian identity.

    One thing you have to remember about the liturgy and sacred music - Power flows from it, and yes, it is mystical and very real. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that this power flows from the liturgy into the whole Church.

    Have faith!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    In traditional cultures which have male adult-initiation rites, they usually involve:
    a) extreme pain OR
    b) psychological ordeal OR
    c) personal accomplishment
    d) all of the above.

    I think it would take a bit more than calling someone a Knight and letting them wear a costume to restore a sense of male identity.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Some of the Knights of Columbus chapters are made up of good guys who do great work. We had one some years ago, where most of the members only wanted to get away from their wives and drink beer. They would show up for ceremonial events with swords shaking in elderly hands. With that bunch, I thought they were wearing those feathers on the wrong end. Fortunately, some of them are no longer with us, and have been replaced by better guys. But I would have to agree that the costumes are a bit dated and appear silly in this time period.
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    And, FWIW, I'm skeptical of any program to de-feminize the Church, given she is my mother and the bride of Christ.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Unless you plan to actually make war on the infidel


    In case I implied something I didn't mean- I was in no way trying to suggest that this would be a bad idea.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I think the phrase is:
    "... not that there's anything wrong with that."
    Thanked by 3Richard Mix Adam Wood Jahaza
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