World Youth Day opening mass July 23
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    As a historical note, the critique by Fr Guerard des Lauriers, for which Cdl. Ottaviani wrote the cover letter, was responding to an announced text of the GIRM from the Consilium, which (it is said) had not been vetted by the SCDF. The final text published was different enough that the Cardinal pronounced himself satisfied with it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Wendi isn't alone is strongly urging for the propers. A statement in Notitiae, either by the Consilium or the SCR, said "the people are being robbed" if the propers are not sung.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Yes. "anything else" is substituting something inferior to the properly appointed text.

    Hymns were not originally intended to be sung during the Mass, but during devotions. The fact that replacing the Propers with hymns is now status quo in the United States doesn't make it appropriate.

    Since those in the English speaking world now have at their disposal vernacular Propers in a wide variety of settings, there is no longer any reason to substitute something else, that no matter how lovely, is an inferior choice to the text appointed by the church.

    I'm not looking to start an argument with anyone, I'm just not willing to soft pedal anymore. It is what it is. If we as musicians do not start standing up for what the church calls for musically during the celebration of the Mass then we will NEVER reclaim our Catholic culture or our church. It will forever be a battle that we lose because we compromise.

    It's one thing to move slowly and be pastoral, and I do that myself. (We still sing hymns at our church, but they don't replace the Propers, which are also sung) It is quite another to come onto a forum for sacred musicians and equivocate. We should be able to come here and speak the truth without ending up on the bottom of a dogpile for it.

    However, if it will make you feel better to say that I'm overstating the case...by all means, have a go.


  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    An argument from "appropriateness" is well and good. However, GIRM 48, 61, 74, 87 [USA edition] all say that other options besides the propers are lawful. That's all I'm saying. There should be no disputing what the GIRM says.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Oh, nobody's confused about that.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW gregp
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    What IS this music?
    It sounds like Disney little mermaid processed through a new age
    80s pop filter. I can't place it culturally at all. Is it connected to any culture?
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    other options besides the propers are lawful


    Thank God! This is why we allow the bride to enter the church to "All You Need Is Love" during the wedding procession accompanied by electic guitar and drums.

    There should be no disputing that!?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    why we allow

    What's this "we," Wyoming Man? ;-p
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Our parish
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Surely, you can't be serious?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Yea. Fortunately, I did not play it. The 'band' from Notre Dame played for that wedding. And I was told that the celebrant had final say over all things liturgical.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    You're supposed to add: "And stop calling me Shirley!"
    Thanked by 2Kathy gregp
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Getting back to Brazil -- and isn't that a lovely idea? -- I don't think the congregation could have sung along with the Mass ordinary or the psalm refrain if they'd wanted to.

    As you probably know, people sometimes question whether it's legitimate to offer Mass with a setting of the Mass ordinary intended for the choir alone -- one which the congregation is not expected to sing. It is sometimes argued that the Ordinary is a part of the Mass which the congregation is invited to sing, and hence musical settings that the congregation cannot sing are ipso facto excluded. (I don't buy such a rigid argument; the Council documents don't show any intention to banish most of the classical repertoire.)

    Well, this Mass is more or less the same thing, translated into the pop-music style, and it provides one more evidence that it is permissible at times to let the specialized choir perform a choral (indeed, orchestral) setting of the Mass ordinary, with a Sanctus that takes 4'20" to sing!
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    However, GIRM 48, 61, 74, 87 [USA edition] all say that other options besides the propers are lawful.


    Lawful and appropriate are two separate issues.

    @ Francis...seriously? I'm so sorry.
    @ chonak...I don't think a choral setting of the Ordinary is always excluded, but one should be very careful of the context in which one is used, especially these days. There are already myriad complaints about excluding the congregation from "full active conscious participation" don'cha know.

    Dearest---you are just too much! :)
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    This is a really important point, Chonak. The choice of music was certainly not about participation!
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The choice of music was certainly not about participation!

    Which begs an observation and a question:
    First, this is the big disingenuous lie about the "praise team/chorus" model that the loyal opposition will ignore when they twist their words about "wha' happened in Rio" to defend not only the style of music expressly forbidden by the 1903 motu, but the ecclesiology it represents, namely "We're in control, don't mess up the system, sit back and relax, WE got it."
    And, speaking of the system, if it's not bothered by the folks just blithely soaking up the partay music, was there no coterie of advocates for chant or polyphony on the Copacabana? Lord knows they have the PA technology to make a choir on the beach sound like they're singing in Chartres. If I dwell on this "what could have been" possible scenario too much, it's nearly worth weeping over.
    Sigh...
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Speaking of amplification technology on the beach... did anybody else think that the music at least on the TV feeds sounded "too good" to be live from a beach - particularly the orchestra and string parts? Like, I don't know... maybe they had been pre-recorded, and the live instruments played along with the recording, but the real audio going out was from a recording?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    @SkirpR: I only watched yesterday's closing Mass in full; I caught just a few moments from the opening Mass.

    I too thought about a pre-recorded soundtrack, but yesterday's orchestral conductor wore no headset, so would it have been possible for him to have kept the live orchestra in sync with a pre-recorded track?
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I have not commented on specifics of WYD liturgies simply because I chose not to watch any of them. I did read about one held in a beautiful cathedral that I think was presided/celebrated by a bishop other than HHF.
    Not that anyone cares, but one might ask "why?" Because of the irresistable head-worm association of WYD/Brazil to the word "frenzy" stuck in my brain.
    Media pundits (and I imagine some within the church itself) kept hammering how this event week would attract thousands of the lapsed/exodus RC's in So. America back from Prot/Evangelical lovefests.
    Well, does this mean that when they return to their local parishes all pumped up, what will that re-enlistment look like? Will their ardor be maintained by HHF's rather pointed and purposed words in homilies as the dust and sand settles back into status quo prior?
    Now, I ask, if the closing Mass before 3Mm souls had been punctuated by some nicely crafted and LIVE chant and polyphony (of which So.American choirs are famed, see Grau, Alberto) at Copacabana, those souls would have experienced a church of all ages and beyond time, and with all my heart believe would have said "That's what's been missing" as a soundtrack to their personal pilgrimage. Again, sigh...
    But I presume the "seamless garment" of WYD/Brazilian church culture lies somewhere between beachwear and Carnival sequins.
    "If My people, who are called by My Name, would humble themselves and pray."
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    Now I'm confused. What are the "propers"?
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Now I'm confused. What are the "propers"?


    The part of the liturgy that changes according to the date on the liturgical calender. As distinguished from the "Ordinary". The ordinary you probably recognize because it's the same (text at least) every Mass: The Kyrie (Lord have mercy), the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus ("Holy Holy Holy") and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God).

    The wiki is ok for a general description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propers?vm=r&s=1
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    AP23,
    They would be the calendar assigned Entrance antiphons (w/without verses), Psalm response/verses or from the Gradual, sequences (like Come, Holy Spirit...at Pentecost and other festal days), gospel acclamation verses, the Offertory antiphon (verses), and the Communion antiphon (verses). As Scott says, they are particular to the calendar as opposed to the Ordinary movements of the Mass (save for the recommendation of certain Latin chant Masses associated with seasons.)
    I'd regard them like one does the assigned scripture lessons for each calendar day's Mass.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Several times during the festivities they've transitioned rather suddenly from boisterous pep rally to quiet prayer. When it's time for quiet prayer, they've made an announcement to the effect that "now it's time for quiet prayer."

    If before the Mass they sang Veni, Creator Spiritus, this would have the same effect as the announcements. Or Adoro Te devote at Communion.

    We have the best music in the world, and it's really a shame none of it was heard this week.
  • AP23AP23
    Posts: 119
    Isn't fine to not do the Entrance or Communion Antiphons, and replace them with Hymns?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I too thought about a pre-recorded soundtrack, but yesterday's orchestral conductor wore no headset, so would it have been possible for him to have kept the live orchestra in sync with a pre-recorded track?


    Well, it's possible it was all just good miking, but then again, if they're blaring the pre-recorded soundtrack through the speakers, he really doesn't need help being completely in sync as much as the singers do - besides, most of it had a pretty strong beat anyway.

    And outdoors, any thing they were playing that wasn't in complete sync (with a soundtrack blaring) would really only be noticable in their immediate vicinity for about 10-20 feet - where there was conspicuously nobody placed.

    I've been involved in these sort of large-scale events with live music before. Like I said, it could have been amazingly great tech work, but I remain skeptical.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Isn't fine to not do the Entrance or Communion Antiphons, and replace them with Hymns?


    It depends on what you mean by fine. If you mean is it permissible, then yes.

    Just be aware that if you replace a Proper with a hymn, you are willfully replacing an appointed text with something that is at best a paraphrase (that may or may not convey the proper meaning) and often not even that.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    conductor wore no headset

    Ummm, the cutting edge of sound engineering has virtually invisible in-ear, wireless moniters.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Wow; are we going to end up with some big exposé about how the WYD singers were lip-synching, like that kid at the Beijing Olympics? :-)

    Or were they perhaps engaged in karaoke?

    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Speaking of yesterday's closing Mass, it appears that what would have been the "propers" if there had been propers were reflected in the music selected. The three presidential prayers (collect, prayer over the offerings, prayer after communion) form set B of 18. For the Evangelization of peoples, Masses for Various Needs and Occasions in the MR. (Check out the "propers" texts - not intended to be sung, of course - in that Mass formulary.) The preface used was Common Preface I.

    (Interestingly, the only place in the Lectionary for Mass where all three readings and the responsorial psalm - but not the Gospel acclamation verse - occur together is in the Common of Pastors.)

    I was impressed by the reverence of the youth at yesterday's Mass. They were told to put down their banners during the Mass, and they did. They were twice told to observe periods of silence, and they did - wonderfully. Those making the most puerile remarks on this thread should perhaps view the video.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Those making the most defensive remarks on this thread should watch the videos more closely. Right after the announcement to put down the banners, one of the priests saw that the camera was on him, so he took off his identifying light blue scarf and waved it for the camera.

    Is this the best liturgical sense available? No. It is not.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Question: Can women make puerile remarks?
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I think this thread may have run its course.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    In English or Latin?

    More to the point, is it possible to have a WYD liturgy that doesn't look like a large scale production of High School Musical? Yes, I say, yes!
    Thanked by 2expeditus1 KARU27