A full-time job, advanced degree at part-time wages?
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Where there is no Gov. Moonbeam, etc. All is not well in CA, hasn't been for some time, and I wonder if I'm on a sinking ship to stay in this state.
Whoa there Missy! Moonbeam, Ahnold....what's the difference? And yes, all's not well, but (in whisper voice) there's no greener grass anywhere else on the planet. When to worry about sinking? If and when the BIG ONE rolls on down the San Andreas.
Now, take a breath and take stock: Your gig; the metro reality that your husband can gig in SD; your parish loves you and that love radiates across the nation because of what you and FSSP were inspired to create and increase (talk about "de fructibus."; SD is a bell weather environment for cultural change for the better, if it can happen there, it can happen.....
Anyways, that's my pitch to a great California Girl (Cue Beach Boys.)
But if you wanna go to Wheeling, give a brother or father a headsup. St. A's might need a new soprano and a polyphonic phool. -
If I really intend to leave SD, you'll be among the first to know.
I'm just tired of CA in general, and crowds and traffic and cultural decay, not my parish work.
The BIG ONE must be happening soon....? -
I wish we all would be more charitable. I my humble 2 cents it does not further our worthy cause to use rude language. One can easily express a viewpoint in charitable language and perhaps be more convincing. Don't we wish for new folks to take an interest in this forum? I know some have been driven out and decide to give up because of rude comments and arrogant attitudes. Just my .02.Thanked by 1formeruser
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I let this job posting slide because even with my limitations I recognized that Noel posted it only for discussion.
But I did make a mistake; I should move it to a different category, so I will do that.
And Fr. Krisman makes a point: I haven't explained the rationale for the special treatment of job postings lately. So I have just added this explanation to the Forum Etiquette Guidelines:The aim of these limitations is to offer a safe, welcoming environment for people who make job postings on the CMAA forum. If you've ever advertised a job, you no doubt are familiar with "classified ad" notices. They are not set up to give equal time to graffiti by anonymous critics. So if you especially need to comment, start a separate thread for that purpose.
It would generally be good, constructive, and community-minded if you would hold off such criticism of a job posting during the first week it appears (while it's at the top of the list). There's no rush to get into the person's face and tell him what for. If you have real suggestions for improvement, nothing is stopping you from contacting the original poster directly.
Thanked by 1Gavin -
ghmus, I would rather people hear outright what real musicians, presumably their "target audience" actually think than have everyone just be so polite and say nothing while I pastor sits and wonders "WHY am I not getting any decent resumes??? I'm offering full time work, a $20,000 a year salary ..."
Remember, MANY priests do not inhabit the real world and some never have. My pastor happens to have worked for a few years in the business world before seminary, so I'm lucky - but some of these guys went into seminary at 14 and never came out. They need to hear why their job offer and salary isn't so remarkable. -
PGA makes a good point, so I mention again that if a job posting is unrealistic, people can send advice to the person who posted it, either through e-mail or through a private forum message. Since job posters probably do not read the forum regularly, E-mail and private messages are probably the most reliable ways of communicating to them!
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if a job posting is unrealistic, people can send advice to the person who posted it,
I just wonder if it would do any good: the parishes will all tell you they "don't have the money" to pay people what they should be getting for their work, or that "it's a calling" and you "don't do it for the money."
I've had a similar discussion with the music director at the other Catholic church in our town (which is great, because he's in the same boat I am usually, and it's nice to have someone to talk with). The general conclusion is that priests just don't have the expenses that we do, although I'm not personally sure what the church covers for them in addition to their salary, but I am told that rent/mortgage (which is usually the BIG expense for most people), and utilities (the other headache for most of us) are covered by the church. They also won't have families to take care of, so things like diapers are not a concern; neither is gasoline because they seldom have to drive to work (the priests I know all live in the rectory, which is normally a short walk from the church). So, if you're in the position where you don't have to pay for those things, a $20,000/year salary doesn't look so bad.
Priests are, however, probably just as underpaid for their qualifications as we are. Although it's not my business to know what any priest makes, and in all honesty, I do not know any actual salary figures, nor would I have interest to, I can imagine that they don't make what others holding a Master's degree would. -
They are underpaid, but many of them have never had real jobs in their lives. Food, housing, insurance, car allowances, housekeeping, utilities, and such are provided. Many don't know what anything costs because they haven't shopped in years, including the costs of grocery items.
If you are fortunate enough to get a priest who had a career before entering the priesthood, it can be a different situation.Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz -
They are underpaid, but many of them have never had real jobs in their lives. Food, housing, insurance, car allowances, housekeeping, utilities, and such are provided. Many don't know what anything costs because they haven't shopped in years, including the costs of grocery items.
Perhaps if you add the value of those items provided and the salary, you would get a somewhat comparable wage to others holding a Master's. -
They don't make much - but when almost all of your money is "fun" money, it doesn't matter.
I've known many who went out to dinner at expensive places 3 or 4 nights a week, saw all the latest movies, and did all sorts of other "extras" that I can't afford on a regular basis - seeing shows at the theatre, orchestra concerts, baseball games, etc.
The only thing they have to pay for, realistically, is their car and insurance, as well as any credit card debt and things like that. But with only having that to pay for, making $35,000 a year isn't so bad with housing, medical insurance, food, utilities, etc. etc. paid for. FWIW I think the $35,000 neighborhood is accurate in one diocese I am familiar with. -
I am very sure that it would be very unwise to pursue the latest strands of this thread regarding clerical issues, especially with caricaturing their lifestyles within a monetary context, and as adversarial to our personal interests and causes. I'm not saying this advocating anything expressed is good or bad. It is a dynamic chronicled over centuries, why rake up muck here as it doesn't reflect upon our professionalism nor represent the content and character of all priests, pastors and bishops.
HHFrancis has opened a new chapter of conversation over such matters, most notably with a total revamping of the curial departments now to be led by lay professionals. And his comments about clerics being challenged to renounce being functionaries and to be pastors out among the poorest of the sheep might have some ping and resonance. Too early to tell. But if we need to "truth talk" to clerics, I suggest we have the integrity and courage to do it in the privacy of their offices, not here. YMMVThanked by 1CHGiffen -
Without deferring too much to CA political correctness, I can say that some priests work very hard, while others don't do so much - if we are talking about compensation for work performed. In many parishes, the musicians work harder than the priests.
I once mentioned to an eastern priest that a local Latin priest was probably tired after all the Holy Week events. The eastern priest said, "Why? It's not like the Latins do that much work." In comparison, looking at the length and complexity of eastern Holy Week events, I understand what he meant.Thanked by 1Gavin -
Priests also don't have to worry about job security or whether their kid is going to need dental work.
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Yes, Fr. Krisman, I think the tone in this discussion is actually quite civil. Adam's comment directly above mine is on point, as well. Is it just that, although I'm full-time, my diocese's health care plan requires that I pay over 60% of my family plan's premium? You may know that anything below 75% is considered IMMORAL by the LCMS. Nonetheless, I wouldn't trade this job and I am very grateful for my opportunity.
Now, the Wheeling job probably has very good benefits and would be a congenial situation. That said, it is certainly with the realm of polite conversation to critique it. In fact, I believe these sorts of polite discussions help both the clergy advertising the job and the expectation of those applying for it.
Now if I can just get Charles to stop making fun of WV...you need to take a page from MaryAnn's playbook! :) -
Now if I can just get Charles to stop making fun of WV...you need to take a page from MaryAnn's playbook! :)
Bruce, use the purple if you're joking, and I did catch the emoticon. However, I don't think I've actually said or inferred anything to poke fun at WV. I drove thru it after colloquium 11, very bucolic and beautiful territory.
I have reviewed my comments, and if there's territory I've poked fun at, it's only California. I don't mind anyone getting yuk mileage at my expense, as I live to make people laugh. Just make sure that you've read what I actually said. -
@BruceL: I never said I had a problem with critiquing job descriptions. Rather, I wondered why all postings are not open to discussion, and Chonak provided an answer.
Your raising the issue of health care insurance premiums is, IMO, why all job postings should be open to some discussion. And it would be good practice that all postings say something about salary and benefits so musicians don't waste time submitting resumés for positions that, once the compensation package is revealed, is woefully inadequate for the musician and his or her family. -
@melofluent, I am TOTALLY kidding...your internet sarcasm filter needs an update! I am color blind (also not kidding), so purple wouldn't help me!
@ronkrisman: sorry for the misunderstanding. I am agreed on your second paragraph. That said, I think some pastors are willing to restructure staffs/salaries for the right person. This was the case with my current job; I originally did not reply because I knew the incumbent's income (which was insufficient to support a family). After the interview process progressed a bit, though, the rector realized the candidates he was interested in were all requesting a similar (higher) salary. So, for what it's worth, the salary advertisements should be read with a grain of salt. There are few pastors (pax) that really have any idea how to hire (or pay!) a musician. -
HTML tips for beginners in sidebar, last entry.
Not difficult. -
That said, I think some pastors are willing to restructure staffs/salaries for the right person. This was the case with my current job; I originally did not reply because I knew the incumbent's income (which was insufficient to support a family). After the interview process progressed a bit, though, the rector realized the candidates he was interested in were all requesting a similar (higher) salary. So, for what it's worth, the salary advertisements should be read with a grain of salt. There are few pastors (pax) that really have any idea how to hire (or pay!) a musician.
This is really the best advice. If the pastor loves what you have to offer, but can't be flexible enough to restructure the position or salary to suit your needs (for whatever reason), then I don't think you'd be able to be successful in that position long-term anyway. Perhaps it is the case that some pastors don't recognize what a job should offer money-wise, but if they're happy with whom they'll get for much less, then that's nothing for you as a candidate to be very upset about.
Lexus probably doesn't get upset when a customer buys a Kia because it's cheaper. If the customer really want a Lexus, they'll pay for it. -
This is really the best advice. If the pastor loves what you have to offer, but can't be flexible enough to restructure the position or salary to suit your needs (for whatever reason), then I don't think you'd be able to be successful in that position long-term anyway. Perhaps it is the case that some pastors don't recognize what a job should offer money-wise, but if they're happy with who they get for much less, then that's nothing for you as a candidate to be very upset about.
Lexus probably doesn't get upset when a custome buys a Kia because it's cheaper. If the customer really want a Lexus, they'll pay for it.
Oh yeah, I should say another job I interviewed for at the same time basically told me (point blank) that they wanted me, but weren't interested in paying what I was asking. Trust me, it wasn't like I was asking for the top of the AGO scale, either. So, it goes both ways...but it can't hurt to ask! -
To get back on tack, excerpts from some current job opening ads:
Vibrant Central Florida Parish seeks a collegial and well organized full-time Associate Director of Music.
This indicates the person who left was impossible to get along with and totally disorganized.
Vibrant worship space with….
California? Church built on ground fault?
Job includes competitive salary (though lower than NPM suggestion), benefits, and retirement.
Hardly competitive if it's lower, Father.
Responsible for coordinating the many talented vocalists and instrumentalists that make up our acclaimed music ministry.
Humility is so important!
Eager volunteers await the enthusiasm and energy of a vibrant music leader to enliven our weekend worship together.
Pollyanna lives! Or maybe Vanna just posted too many "E"s.
Must be able to promote lively, engaging liturgies, and be able to work with all ages in our choral programs.
Liturgies for dating couples ready to make the next step?
Since it’s a part-time position, compensation averaged into an hourly amount; at heavier work times (Christmas, Holy Week, Easter), bonuses would be paid.
So you are paying an hourly rate, but it's not hourly and you pay more when you are working the same hours but they are heavier. Is this like heavy water? We really want to know. -
Musicians need to get a backbone, and not work for hay. Every time a musician excepts hay, they lessen the weight and importance of the job. Stop playing for nothing and respectfully decline when you don't get what you are worth. If you are an amateur, don't muddy the water: recommend someone who is a professional.
I was once asked by an office manager, "why don't we just have volunteers running the music program?" I quickly responded, "well, why don't you let me handle the church financials?" He immediately replied, "Well, now, that puts a different slant on things!" -
I was once asked by an office manager, "why don't we just have volunteers running the music program?"
Just goes to show: non-musicians sometimes think this is easy and requires no training or practice, and all that concerns your business managers is the money. I mean, music is fun, right? How much should we really be paying for fun, when liturgy is serious business? -
To quote the inestimable Mike Flynn, "No field of knowledge is so transparently simple as another’s."Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
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Here is an interesting posting nearby:
Director of Music and Youth Ministry (full-time) - 60% music (responsible for all Masses), 30% youth ministry, 10% faith formation. Qualifications include "relevant bachelor's degree".
Has anyone else seen this division of tasks before? (There are several other interesting things in the posting...) -
I've done that combination before. It's not bad, especially if the music ministry includes young people, in which case it's natural. A lot of time active youth ministries have a dozen or two people involved, while a good youth music program can have many more. The challenge in that case would be to make sure there are other activities that involve non-musical young people.
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Well Ben, that's what I thought, but then...
"Knowledge and skills:
-Understands liturgically appropriate music, with an emphasis in praise/worship style of music
-Ability to integrate – traditional, sacred and modern genres of music into a praise and worship style appropriate for Mass"
...
Maybe they need more than 10% on the formation part... -
Two words for you:
Jumbo
Tron
Yowsers!! -
Understands liturgically appropriate music, with an emphasis in praise/worship style of music
My head just exploded, seeing those two phrases next to each other.
This is a serious question: If P&W style music can be used (some of which drops into rock-sounding, depending on how you play it), what do they honestly thinkisn't appropriate?Thanked by 1irishtenor -
Has anyone else seen this division of tasks before? (There are several other interesting things in the posting...)
As I have searched for new positions in music education, occasionally I will find something like this:
"Responsibilities include: direct the two bands at the high school level, assist the middle school band director, and tutor mathematics after school."
or
"Immediate opening for music teacher and Title I instructor. Individual must be able to fulfill the requirements of both positions."
or, there's even my current position (before I took it):
"Immediate opening for music teacher and Spanish teacher. Individual will teach grades K-5 elementary music, direct the middle school band, and teach Spanish to grades K-8."
You'll see crazy stuff like that in education all the time. Most of the time, they want you licensed in both subjects, too, which in Indiana means that you have to have TWO Bachelor's Degrees, unless your license was grandfathered in before they changed the law.
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