Sacred Music Apologetics
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The vernies.

    image
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Dad29:

    If you mean that the congregation reads these silently, while the choir sings, that makes perfect sense. If you mean that the choir sings, and then the congregation speaks the antiphon, I've seen such things tried and have come away with the conclusion that they don't work precisely because they attempt to separate that which should be joined.

    If we sing the "Gospel Acclamation", we should sing its verse.
    If we sing the verses at communion, we should definitely sing the antiphon. If we sing the antiphon (and if we use the verses) the verses should be sung.

    If Father speaks the Doxology, we should respond in kind. To do otherwise treats the liturgy as 2-yr old parallel play. (This isn't mean to be demeaning at all, merely a statement that those 2-yr olds aren't playing at the same task.)

    Thanked by 3Adam Wood donr CHGiffen
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Ok SACRED MUSIC PROMOTERS:
    In your charity, please pray for me. It wasn't my idea, but someone from Catholic Answers will be interviewing me today about Chant Camp.


    This is awesome news. Good luck, I for one will be praying for you. Let us know when it will be aired / posted on Youtube so we can see it.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Thanks, Don! Much appreciated. I'm solidifying my talking points now. Next step, coffee and makeup.

    I started the prayer request in caps so the other guys would notice, but I'm not feelin' the love... Melo, et tu???

    Adam has an excuse- his prayer time was subverted by finding the wittiest graphic he could. Man, you're good, Adam!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Yeah, low mass is when we sing the vernies.


    I like that term "vernies." :-)
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Thanks for the thoughts. We're on the course to eliminate the "entrance hymn" and go Propers there, at Offertory, and at Communion, although we'll also use a hymn after communion and another as a recessional.

    I don't like the speak/sing option, either, but even less do I like propers AND a hymn at the Offertory. This is a small church, usually less than 200 souls/Mass and doing both will drown the actual offertory (ya' know, the priest-stuff) in music and hang over by 2-3 minutes beyond.

    Situational, I know. Larger church/more people would change the equation.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Dad29:

    I will try not to rant.

    The two choices you put before us are NOT the only two choices.

    Speak/sing attacks the nature of the liturgy.
    Assuming that you're at an OF Mass, drowning out the offertory is sad, but if you don't time it perfectly, some priests will choose to say aloud only the portion of the offertory they haven't finished.
    The third choice -- and the right one -- should include the required singing followed by silence. (Anecdotally someone reported why she hated the Low Mass in the EF, since she was so familiar with the OF -- She had time and space to pray!!)

  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    If you really want to have a chanted offertory, you can chant the antiphon and then go on to sing a hymn/motet/anthem. If you're lucky, you can match up the text of the motet with that of the offertory antiphon. We did the Scarlatti setting of Ad Te Levavi the other week at my church.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Actually, in the OF, the prayers over the offerings are only to be done aloud by the priest if there is no offertory song or other music. See GIRM 142.
    Thanked by 6Spriggo CharlesW Gavin CHGiffen Ben melofluent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Exactly, Liam. I have been asked by priests to play something so they won't have to do those prayers aloud.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The third choice -- and the right one -- should include the required singing followed by silence.


    As I mentioned earlier, that will require Xerox/Distribute/Collect every Sunday. Not impossible, but in the specific case-at-hand it is clumsy. In a way, it's a "make-work" thing: an inefficient way to achieve a "good."

    Actually, in the OF, the prayers over the offerings are only to be done aloud by the priest if there is no offertory song or other music. See GIRM 142.


    The GIRM instruction ignores the fact that the OF is far more 'linear' than the EF. I contend that 'silencing the priest' is a contradiction (or at least a derogation) of the transparency idiom of the OF, which is a reasonable inference from the DoL of VatII asking that the prayers of the priest be audible, as opposed to the EF's silent-prayer mode.

    That sort of internal contradiction is also demonstrated by the USCC's "Sing to the Lord" which was obviously written from two wildly differing perspectives, then sent out as 'definitive.' Mahrt saw it for what it was: a mishmash.

    But I DO appreciate your thought on the matter. We'll prolly end up with the Xerox/Rinse/Repeat method and NOT over-sing the priest's prayers.

    Ugh.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I'm being thick-headed, I guess. Speak-sing-speak-sing is illogical. That aside, why would you need to hand out papers every week?


    By the way -- you're not supposed to use this forum to advocate for the Extraordinary Form, but that's exactly what you do when you level a critique at "Sing to the Lord", and when you assert that the priest's prayers must be heard: God doesn't need a hearing aid. Didn't the reforms of the Council require that the rites be simplified so that their meaning could show forth ever more clearly? Apparently we now think that the Mass is about us.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    The context for the instructions regarding the prayers over the offerings arises from the postconciliar concept that they are *not* offertory prayers as such because the anaphora itself contains the instrumental prayer of offering. Seen in that context, the instructions are less surprising; these prayers are subordinate in nature.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I love the topic, but what does it have to do with Sacred Music Apologetics. Please start a new thread.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Getting back to the topic: Is the interview about Chant Camp available on the net?
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Re Chant Camp interview: it went well- thanks for your prayers!

    The interview is only part of a documentary. The pastor and assistant director/organist were also interviewed, as were several parents and campers. I've asked that the bulk be on the kids singing. Plus they're cuter than I.

    Looks like there'll be two cuts- 20' and 5'. There is a lot of material to edit and so it could be a while. I'll keep you posted.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor donr
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I cant stand opera! The singing hurts my ears and gives me goose pits.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    @MaryAnn please keep us updated.
Add a Comment