Good questions, Andrew.

PC-ness, like beauty, is in the eye, etc.

Here's one to get the list started.

Word and Song (WLP) adds in a new verse for Faith of Our Fathers to include the previously wrongfully-excluded mothers who were not mentioned in the original. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I seem to recall Ritual Song (GIA) throwing in a verse about the faith of our sisters and brothers, too.

Word and Song (WLP) adds in a new verse for Faith of Our Fathers to include the previously wrongfully-excluded mothers who were not mentioned in the original. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I seem to recall Ritual Song (GIA) throwing in a verse about the faith of our sisters and brothers, too.

New hymn. Inspired by the old one. Not a changed old hymn. Of all the "they changed my hymn texts, those PC heretics!" complaints, this is both the silliest and the most tiresome.

Of all the "they changed my hymn texts, those PC heretics!" complaints, this is both the silliest and the most tiresome.

It's true that you can just skip those verses, however it did take me by surprise once when I was fairly new to the job. It's also rather annoying to have to put up on the board (or announce) "We'll be singing verses 1, 3, 4, and 6 of this particular hymn." Skip the announcement? That's what I'd prefer, but some priests insist upon it.

Also, you forgot the purple text.

Since the year of faith hymn is so dreadful, we decided to use "Faith of Our Fathers" as our YOF hymn. We decided to use Fr. Faber's text instead of more current lyrics.

The National Hymn, "God of Our Fathers" has been changed in many Protestant hymnals to "God of the Ages..." I noticed that GIA did not change that wording in Ritual Song, but did alter the last verse. It was "And glory. laud, and praise be ever thine," or nearly similar in several hymnals. The RS 4th verse ended, "Until at last, we meet before your face." A bit of shift in the emphasis from God to us. Perhaps PC or not, depending on your viewpoint.

See this now-dormant blog for high-minded (and highly-educated) outrage on the subject: http://cathythinks.blogspot.com/

I think of hymn writing not as literature or liturgy but as craft. (This is rather funny because I'm not good at crafts). But I know a well-made chest of drawers when I see it, or a carefully cut and sewn dress. The difference between something amazing, an heirloom handiwork, and a utility piece, is in the sewing. Do the seams show?

The problem with editing one of the masterpieces is that to mend a masterwork of furniture, you have to be a mastercraftsman of the same order. This is not what always happens in the updating process. The seams show.

The other aspect, which we've touched on here before, is memorization. People take these words to heart--and then they change. A bit silly.

I tend to view the writers of hymn masterpieces similarly to icon writers. There is an inspiration of the Holy Spirit present in the work. Maybe it shouldn't be tampered with. Just my 2 cents, ymmv.

I am not in the anti-hymn crowd. I like hymns.

I didn't say anti-hymn crowd. Just that hymns are not-liturgical, and that (generally speaking) the plurality of people 'round these parts understands their non-liturgical nature.

I'm not sure this is a "crowd" of any kind, actually.

Contrary to occasional protestations to the contrary, I find the crowd here to be most kind.

it's so important that the hymns be good hymns

This will never get an argument from me.

I don't know if hymns are non-liturgical, the GIRM saying what it says. I mean, we're supposed to sing something during the entrance procession, and it could be a hymn.

"suitable liturgical chant" (or "song" if you prefer)
The fact that something has been sung there doesn't make it liturgical. It was supposed to be liturgical in the first place.

Obviously, there are "liturgical hymns" - those of the Divine Office. Sequences, too, could be considered thus. As are, I would venture, vernacular metrical translations. POTENTIALLY, metrical Psalmody would also count, along with Metrical translations of the Propers.

Even in these cases, the ur-text which lends the hymn or chant it's credibility as being "Liturgical" is not in English, but in Latin. Here, then, is a need to balance LA's suggestion that certain potentially-sexist constructions are at least appropriate and perhaps needed, with the fact that a translation is intended to render the actual sense of the original.

In any case, "Faith of our Fathers," along with "Once to every Man and nation," "Good Christian Men rejoice," and countless others (IATBOL's "he/him", etc) are decidedly NOT liturgical. Their use and purpose (to the extant they have a legitimate one) is for the edification and participation of the faithful. If the accident of their content betrays the essence of their nature to an extent that they falter in their purpose, they should be removed or changed.

You're Lebowski, man, Adam's "The Dude!" (With whom I agree about the "ownership" of texts down the cosmic line of time.)
I wouldn't worry about CDub's caricature of us as "crowd," he's a nihilist with a ferret.

On a more serious shift, I wonder if all the kerfuffle lately on the fori triangle about quantity of and adherence to scriptural sources as foundational for hymnody if it's to be used at all in liturgy is actually detrimental to truly gifted poets and lyricists who enflesh our theology and dogma with vivid and life changing imagery?

Charles the First, I'm an advocate of Scriptural imagery for hymns. To me, that's life-changing because it's got that "Holy Ghost power" just by virtue of being Scripture.

How's about the poetry of Henry Vaughn? I've set some of his.

I have to stop now, in theatre and World War Z bout to start, see ya.

You know, many of us have never seen a Mennonite Hymnal. Church of Christ (Disciples of Christ) I know, since I used to work for them. Mennonites are rather scarce in these parts.

It really should be no surprise the conversation went in the direction it did. Not because this forum is prone to digression (which it is), but rather because (I imagine) few of us working in the Roman Catholic (or related) traditions are much interested in "trying to fight a horrible hymnal at a Mennonite affiliated church."

I do see now that what you were asking about is: Does anyone know of anybody who would want this information I have collated?

To which I can say, I do not know of any.

Are you on Facebook? There is a group there called "I'm fed up with bad church music." They are non-denominational and perhaps someone there may have an idea for you.

Ummm, how did we get HERE? All I asked for was a website. If no one could come up with one, then maybe I am going to do one for the common good.

I did not ask you to fight that lost battle for me--I said I found that file and had a thought. Who said I wanted you to join in fighting Mennonite liberals? I am very happily Catholic now. Should I throw out this old file, or should I keep it and expand the data base and put it out there for people to use.

Heavens to Murgatroyde.

If I am spelling that correctly.

Kenneth

Yes, I was, from 1979-1983 (my first Mass @ St T's was in the the large auditorium in the Chemistry Building where Mr Elzinga taught Econ 101; the post-fire church was just being finished then). I was in the choir that Sister ... Monica (IIRC?) founded before you took over for her. I can remember when we discovered there was an organ lurking behind that concrete block screen (I have fond memories of glass in that old space, btw) and wondered about possibilities. I remember learning chant and polyphony from her, and also shape note music (of which I remain very fond). I participate here under a nom de plume I've used on Catholic discussion boards dating back to the Usenet pre-blogs, et cet. You would remember me as Karl, not Liam.

I didn't realize you were there so long. Whatever happened to . . . Wilhelmina? (I don't remember her last name).

I do remember being rather scandalized by one of the Dominican rectors (early in my years there) who I think was more Jesuit than Dominican when it came to liturgical matters, shall we say. I have fond memories of a Benedictine priest (don't remember his name) who was in residence when I was a second-yearman (there was a parish near where I grew up in on Long Island - St Kilian's in Farmingdale - that had much better liturgy than surrounding parishes because it had been Benedictine-run for a few generations until the mid-1970s).

I kind of gave up on this thread after it wandered so far. I should start a website, I think.

And, yes, Liam, when Catholics wonder why they can't sing, I just say be like the Mennonites: teach them parts at their mother's knee.

Ronkrisman, yes, that is the book. It has some good features.

and the hymnals all bleed into one.

A friend of mine, from the Church of Christ tradition, once lamented thusly to me about how most people are completely unaware of their own heritage or the traditions of worship and theological thought unique to each Protestant movement:

"Everybody eventually becomes Baptist."


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If I had my way, everyone would belong to The One Church. We'd all go to Solemn High Mass on Sunday morning, Anglican-use Evensong on Sunday Evening, and all the former Protestants would lead Praise and Worship sing-alongs on weeknights.

Protestant musicians tend to say "she really knows The Hymnal," for which the more proper term might be "hymnody." They mean she really knows her hymns, not any one hymnal. Catholics would say, "she knows sacred music."