Carol for Soprano, Mezzo-soprano, Cambiata, and piano
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Hello, I am new to the forum, and hope to post about a series of Marian Motets soon, but first please allow me to mention a new, easy, 3 minute Christmas Carol in English: "Come, Come All Ye Shepherds" . All my recent works are written to be sung in just intonation, even when, as this piece, they are accompanied by an equal tempered instrument.

    The online perusal is at www.hartenshield.com/0321_come_come.pdf and the
    recording (electronic) at www.hartenshield.com/0321_come_come.mp3
    A very amateur video of my baby pigs with the recording and lyrics on youtube

    William Copper
    www.hartenshield.com
    my email address is provided in my member profile
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    All my recent works are written to be sung in just intonation, even when, as this piece, they are accompanied by an equal tempered instrument.


    Um.....
    How?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Thanks for asking ...

    .. it isn't completely easy: it has taken me about a decade of study, and thirty years of pondering. But part 1, to be sung in just intonation: all voices must move melodically by tunable intervals, and all harmonic intervals must be simultaneously tunable. And part II, to be accompanied by a piano: the piano must NOT double tunable notes. Take a look at the score offered, you'll quickly see this part. Part I is the more difficult.

    "Tuneable", btw, means generally the modal notes in a key area: the major third and sixth in diatonic major, for instance. The second scale step is the trickiest one, sometimes tuning to dominant, so it could be doubled by piano, and sometimes tuning to subdominant, so it must be avoided by piano.

    I hope to post my "Ave Regina Caelorum" soon, which will show far more key-center movement, and how intonation changes as the keys change.

    Regards,

    William
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    As a piece of schmaltzy, semi-secular, no-liturgical choral music.... I really like it. It reminds me of movie choirs from the 20s-40s.

    Also, I having listened to it, I get the issue with just intonation (the WHY)- it gives it a "barbershop" old-timey feel it wouldn't otherwise have.

    I have some other thoughts and questions....

    1 - question
    Would you think an electric piano, capable of playing in just temperament, would be a better accompaniment? Or do you specifically appreciate the contrast?

    2 - thought and question
    I have a hard time reconciling your description of this music as "easy," considering the tuning issues involved. Have you done this with real singers? Do you have much experience at all with amateur (non-barbershop-oriented) choirs?

    3 - thought
    This music is not appropriate to Sacred Liturgy. My opinion.

    4 -question
    The voices on the recording are clearly synthesized, but they also are singing the words (and not "synth ahhhs"). How did you do that?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Just intonation (I'm not kidding) is barbershop plain and simple and easy to do when NOT being accompanied.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Hello, Adam,

    I will reply somewhat out of order, as I agree or disagree with you:

    3. can't argue, use as you would Silent Night

    4. I have a variety of vocal samples that give vowel and consonant sounds, and have gotten somewhat skilled at applying them; the ones I use most are the oldest, targeted commercially at film score composers.

    1. Very important: this is not "Just temperament", because the tuning changes as the harmony changes. Even in a single tonal center, there are at least two distinct tunings of the second scale step. In more complicated tonal material, there are many different tunings. I began this thinking long ago, as a student at the Eastman School of Music and its official harpsichord tuner, when for one semester my job was to tune the main harpsichord of the organ department to a different historical temperament each week, and post (with an index card on the instrument) data on the tuning used.

    2. "easy": it's new so never sung; but I sing a great deal, and feel that the intonation is in fact quite natural; it would not need discussion with the target user, a children's choir. The various non-harmonic accidentals might raise it above "easy" but surely not more than "medium-easy". I hope so, at least.

    0. and also to the Choirbook: it is not at all barbershop, a genre I have very little experience with, and one from my limited acquaintance where the occasional real beauties are outweighed (imo) by the frequent, say, less-than-beauties.

  • If you had spent some time studying this forum, you would understand why your music is not appropriate for for the Sacred Liturgy, which is the focus of this forum, I think....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I could see that piece for a Christmas concert. Not being a pianist, I have mixed feelings about the accompaniment. I think it is too busy and detracts - maybe distracts would be a better word - from the voices, but that is just me.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I have mixed feelings about the accompaniment. I think it is too busy and detracts


    I find this is a serious problem when using midi sequencing as a tool when composing. The relative deadness of the tone makes sparseness and simplicity sound terrible, leading to a tendency to over-write moving lines. (Especially with piano, an instrument whose warmth and resonance is perhaps its most important sonic quality.)

    As to the liturgical appropriateness of the piece: while there are clear yesses (Gregorian chant) and clear noes (a medley of Sympathy for the Devil and Born This Way), many things fall into a middle ground that requires judgement and opinion. To the extent that your piece's appropriateness is a matter of opinion, I have stated mine. Since I am neither your bishop, nor your employer, you can consider my opinion in whatever way you feel is most beneficial to you.

    (And that goes for the rest of everybody, about everything I say, all the time, ever.)
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I (perhaps more restrictive than Adam) did not find it at all inappropriate, and wouldn't mind using it. Though I should like to perform it much more slowly, and perhaps without accompaniment.

    And, having limited, though some, experience in barbershop, think that is quite a miscategorization of the piece.
    Thanked by 1mrcopper
  • No one said it WAS barbershop. Just intonation is used in barbershop.

    I would never use piano at a Catholic Mass....which is the main reason I would not call this liturgical.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I said
    it gives it a "barbershop" old-timey feel

    I also said
    schmaltzy, semi-secular...reminds me of movie choirs from the 20s-40s


    So... if Gavin disagrees with me that it has that feeling, it might be mere splitting hairs that I didn't explicitly say "It IS barbershop." I just found it to be barbershopish.

    I consider these to be compliments, actually- they are precisely what I LIKE about the piece. But they are also what I find makes them inappropriate for liturgy (in my opinion).

    But Gavin disagrees with me on that, and (I agree) he is generally more "restrictive" about styles in liturgy than I am. So (as should be expected, always) my opinion is not the only legitimate one.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I would never use piano at a Catholic Mass....which is the main reason I would not call this liturgical


    You will not be surprised to know that this is not my objection to the piece.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It's more splitting hairs. In my very limited (light analysis of a few pieces, and singing twice) experience with barbershop music, I've found it has strikingly odd and distinctive procedures for voice leading. Not that I understand them, but they're quite recognizable. So I find "barbershop-ish" somewhat inapt of terminology, though Adam probably never intended his observation as objective analysis. I was just being picky.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Thanks for the discussions at my expense! A few replies: Gavin, I definitely agree, not barbershop and not intended to be either. And 'barbershop' as sung by those people that do it is not just intonation, either.

    Piano: I believe the accompaniment would work well on organ, given a sympathetic look. Any one want to make a version for organ, I'd consider paying you for it.

    Choirbook, your earlier comment was unfriendly and perhaps unfair. I have in fact spent a great deal of time reading in these forums. And though a newcomer, I dispute that "sacred music" has to be music for the Sacred Liturgy and even more that discussions among musicians must be limited to such music.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Following up on the piano part discussion: Following is an unsolicited comment from one choral director. I'm not an organist so I didn't follow up on it before, nor do I think that a woodwind version would sell, but here it is fwiw:

    "The accompaniment creatively dances around the vocal parts, and it's just sweet... Have you thought of doing a woodwind trio/quartet version of the piano part? I think hearing those different colors would certainly prove complimentary. Or an organ with some really great stops. "

    Also a slightly better
    recording of an SATB version from my Hartenshield Music web site and companion pdf score
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I just listened to this again.

    I want to reiterate, it I didn't make it clear before: I like the piece. I think I like it more after coming back to it.

    Also, it still strikes me "barbershop-ISH," but less so than before.

    I also still think it is not appropriate to liturgy. Your comment, "use it as you would Silent Night" essentially confirms this for me: given the option, I would never program Silent Night into a liturgy, either.

    It's the sentimentality of it that makes me feel that way- both the music and the text.

    Which is also why I think it would be a wonderful piece for a semi-religious Christmas concert. In that context, I like it very much (including the piano part, which I don't think is "overwritten," although my comment to that effect above DOES apply generally to midi-aided composition, which is all it was intended to be about).

    Many of us here work in schools, or even in non-liturgical (or semi-liturgical) churches, where a piece like this would be wonderful. (And that's not even taking into consideration that some people would find it appropriate for liturgy.) So I don't really see any reason why this would have been a bad thing to bring to our attention. (Heck- I post my silly poetry here sometimes, just because I think this forum is peopled by the kind of people who might enjoy it.)

    ANYWHO- I'm glad you came. Also, I'm wondering if you have other music, particularly anything in a more "liturgical" style.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Thanks for your kind words, Adam; I first began 'lurking' here because intending to write some serious liturgical music. Over the past year I finished nearly an hour of music in five Marian motets for chorus and orchestra in Latin, intended as concert music, and this summer am writing Christmas music. I'll certainly post when the liturgical pieces are ready!

    I fully agree with you about the dangers of midi, but ... it's a useful tool, too.

    Meanwhile, another Christmas piece, again intended to be sung naturally in just intonation and accompanied by equal tempered keyboard: "Soft, O Soft" pdf score
    and recording

    The introduction is a three-part inventionlet.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Well- I'm just come right out and say I thought that was pretty weird.

    Also, I liked it.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Get out! Not intended to be weird. I should have noted, though, that a choir singing their heart out can't hurt your ears, but an electronic recording can be played too loud, so watch the sound levels.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Gavin, thank you! Your comment about the tempo made me rethink it, and re-record it slightly slower, and more effectively. new recording for "Come, Come All Ye Shepherds"

    The "Soft, O Soft" lyrics perhaps don't communicate right: I was trying to channel a little John Milton, with God's plans challenged but winning after all.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The "Soft, O Soft" lyrics perhaps don't communicate right: I was trying to channel a little John Milton, with God's plans challenged but winning after all.


    I thought they communicated very well- at least to me, they did.

    I hope my characterization as "pretty weird" wasn't too distressing. I do mean it as compliment, as I hope was clear.

    Again- and I only speak from my opinion- it doesn't strike me as liturgical. That you were channeling John Milton further confirms that, for me.

    If I offend- my apologies. I do like your music.