Are we an elite? If so, so what?
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I read somewhere recently that less than a quarter of Americans have a college degree and 95% are musically illiterate. (And, I suppose, one could find similar figures on the degree of effective cathecization among U.S. Catholics.)
If so, what if any effect does that have on any of the discussions on this forum?
Is the standard for hymns, for example, "goofy" v. "heart-warming", vice anything else the Church might have in mind?
Could the standard for the average liturgy be much more?
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God was their degree so to speak and he chose them, so they had the needed intelligence.
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Education isn't the sole requisite for priestly ministry, of course. It can't substitute for intentional discipleship. OTOH, discipleship by itself isn't a replacement for education.
A similar dichotomy arises in the field of spiritual direction. As Fr. Erlenbush wrote a few years ago:St. Teresa [of Avila] is famed for having advised that, if we must choose, it is better to have a learned director than a holy one – since one who is learned will be able to advise the safest course to take in the spiritual life, but one who is holy (without being learned) will not know of any spirituality beyond his own.Thanked by 1Jenny -
rob, wondering about bridging philosophical and practical issues that we can conjure up about our "responsibilities" to the gathered faithful will lead you to a Frostian fork in the road at best. Do you know and accept the path that's been gifted you, and trust that the Lord gave it? Or are you unsure?
If you can first leave "Ego" outside the door before you figure that answer, you'll be fine. -
Good question, and difficult to answer. Musicians are generally well educated folks. My own experience has been that people are appreciative of beautiful music when it is presented respectfully. By that I mean that the people are brought into the process and buy into it, rather than it being dictated from above. If folks know you care about them and have their best interests in mind, it makes a difference. YMMV, to quote the venerable sage of CA.
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Don't know if this helps, Rob, but I've come to the realization that church musicians are a special breed with their own unique virtues and vices. It's been a real revelation to me to be on this forum. I joined about a month ago, but I felt instantly at home and realized for the first time in my life what it's like to be with "colleagues".
To my amazement I've discovered that we exhibit some definite group characteristics which might seem a little peculiar to the general population. How about this for starters:
Most of us are probably afflicted with obsessive-compulsive disorder.
We actually read liturgical documents for fun (and can quote them which is even weirder.)
Some of us (like myself) are uncommonly verbose.
We actually read hymn texts and discuss them.
We love arcane information, the more obscure, the better.
On the good side, I've also noticed that the people on this form are very generous about sharing information and resources, and are sympathetic and kind to each other. I can't tell you how impressed I am with the courtesy and camaraderie that is daily displayed on this forum. Perhaps people that love music are naturally sensitive and compassionate, I don't know.
I'm afraid the downside is that there are faults as well, (pride, impatience, stubbornness?) but it all goes with the territory, as they say. I haven't done much research on the "artistic temperament" but it's obvious that as a group we share some traits in common, and it's been a fascinating experience; I'm so grateful for this opportunity to learn so much and for the fellowship. -
Melo, O ancient of days, O CMAA Papa!
Wisdom- be attentive!!
What a great answer.
The original concern is worthy of reflection, Rob. I'm going to stir an answer and post it if I can add anything. -
rob- I'm very curious what exactly you are getting at. Apparently your concerns have not been addressed- so I can only wonder what exactly they are.
I'm going to take a stab at addressing what I think you might be getting at, with apologies if I'm just way off base...
I have heard, and been concerned myself, that traditional Sacred Music is too "highbrow" for regular people. Or thoughts to that effect. That is, regular, uneducated people need (for instance) simpler songs, vernacular hymns and prayers, and so forth.
I find this to be both practically untrue, and not a little demeaning.
First- let's dispatch the notion that the uneducated or the simple cannot appreciate high art or classical music. It's a bit of red herring, so it's best to get it out of the way.
Anyone who has ever worked with children knows that, with a very minimum amount of preparation, they can enjoy classical music and other forms of high art. Whenever educational or philanthropic organization have managed to get schoolchildren (including or especially poor, disadvantaged, minority) to go see opera, or the symphony, or Shakespeare plays, or the ballet, the results are usually outstanding.
Further, when invited to participate in such "high art" endeavors, it is more often than not the children from poor and uneducated families and communities that take to it with such passion.
So- I would suggest that no person's educational level has much to do with their capacity to appreciate great art. (If that was my main point, I could go on with more examples. And also plenty of examples of college-educated philistines.)
BUT.... That isn't the real issue, really...
The native music of the Roman Rite- the music that all the rest should find it's inspiration in- is not classical, or "high art," concert music. Gregorian chant is so simple as to be called "plain."
Do you think there's an entrance exam to become a monk at Solesmes, or any of the other monasteries where the chant is sung with regularity? Listen to a recording of chant from any European monastery- you might be listening to the voices of one or two people from middle class or prominent families, but I'd wager a bottle of Venezuelan Ron Añejo that the bulk of the singers are the children of farmers and peasants.
Anyone can learn to chant the Missa de Angelis, or some of the other simpler Gregorian Ordinaries. Anyone can sing the traditional hymns with ease. And anyone can listen and enjoy the sublime harmonies of a Renaissance motet.
It may take a graduate degree to be able to explain this music, but it doesn't take anything more than being a human being to delight in it. -
Thanks, Adam. Despite my lack of clarity in posing the question, you and most of the others really do seem to get the issue.
A great part of the answer appears to be boiling down to musicians' humility and self-awareness.
The other part -- dealing with others' perceptions of the music -- I'm still not sure. I don't disagree with you and I've noted myself how interest in and appreciation of the music and other fine arts seems to cluster at the "high" and "low" ends of the social scale.
The great middle? They seem to be human beings as well, but evidence that they "delight in it" is scant.
(And, if they don't, what's the assessment: that our premise is flawed or that their judgment is defective?) -
My (admittedly, limited) experience is that the "great middle" who complain against traditional sacred music are not in the middle at all, but part of the educated and well-to-do 1%.
That is not to say that the middle class white people in suburban America are less deserving of pastoral care than anyone else, just to say that they are hardly God's Anawim. -
Well, I've certainly encountered people across the class spectrum who complain against traditional sacred music: indeed, if there's one thing I've learned in the past 30 years, it's that people's class and political views do not correlate well with what you'd expect for liturgical and musical preferences. Too many uber-conservative Catholics (working class and 1%) with deeply Luddite preferences in liturgical music, plenty of uber-progressive (ditto) Catholics with a love of chant and polyphony; though they often feel silenced by their peers who's tastes align with what folks here might expect (and will only tell you if they feel safe and you really spend time getting to know them - sometimes, these folks have driven me crazy on committees and community meetings because they will not publicly own up to their preferences, but that's another topic altogether).Thanked by 1Kathy
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So do we dismiss the whole question as of one mere taste?
Nope, rob, sing the music that you've discerned best to fit the moment as if all your lives depended upon it. In a manner of speaking, they do. -
The common factor which seems to attract some is the very factor which repels others: the music.
So do we dismiss the whole question as of one mere taste?
Here is something to consider:
What if people's opinions about (and acceptance of) musical styles are related to their past experiences? That might explain why children often readily accept chant--they haven't had any previous experiences to color their view.
It seems to me that on both sides of the musical spectrum, people's opinions (i.e. likes/dislikes) are largely influenced by what they have encountered earlier. Some might like something because it reminds them of happy memories; others might dislike something for the same reason--memories or associations.
If people have had negative associations with chant in the past, based on either previous experiences of poor performances (either pre-VII or today) or having encountered the movement being presented with a less-than-ideal attitude or spirit, that might make it more difficult for them to accept the RotR.
Just a thought--it might not have to do with class per se. And that would also mean that opinions could therefore have the potential to change!Thanked by 1Claire H -
I agree that musical tastes are nurtured early in life, and unless children are exposed to many different genres as early as the womb, they will be influenced in their likes and dislikes. Memory is also an important element in musical tastes. How many of us went from OCP to sacred music only to hear "oh, I remember that when I was a little girl/boy"? You also have a good point in saying that people's attitudes towards music can be based on their experiences. If Gregorian Chant was being sung at a time when a child was being bullied in school (silly analogy, I guess, but the best I've got right now), then that child will forever remember chant as indicative of past hurts.
I definitely don't think musical tastes are based on class, and I do not believe that church musicians belong to some elite club. Education does not mean knowledge all the time. I know a lot of "educated" people who know less in terms of common sense then those with advanced degrees. A good friend of mine is a fantastic musical director, with no formal education nor training. She self-taught piano and organ out of a desire to learn. I was rather shocked to learn she did not have a college degree, let alone one in music.
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Let me be critical of us musicians. I find that the conservatory model trains "musicians" to perform classical to 20th century works in one instrument. Musicians throughout history have never been trained in conservatories and have never been solely performers. My point is that a college degree does not naturally result in being a musician, let alone a church musician and an organist. We should invest a great amount of time to learn (i.e read books) theology, history and all aspects of music (conducting, composing, improvising, performing, etc) by ourselves and rely less on our degrees.
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Amen
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How many of us went from OCP to sacred music only to hear "oh, I remember that when I was a little girl/boy"?
What I find interesting in this discussion is that, as a child of the 1980s, I grew up with OCP music and the like in school and on Sunday... and while I now (intellectually) know that some of it is not good music (from my formal musical training) and/or not ideal for liturgy (from my personal liturgical studies), it still holds a special place in my heart and probably always will - even despite some of the damage the mindset that produced it may have done to the Church.
But no matter what, I always try to be bigger than my own emotional associations when I happen to be given the awesome task of choosing liturgical music for a school or parish.Thanked by 1Adam Wood -
"[Pseudo-folk] still holds a special place in my heart and probably always will."
Being roughly of the same generation, I cannot say the same for myself. I am forever scarred by the Mass, in first grade, in which we were expected to do a liturgical dance and sing to "Here I am, Lord". To this day, I seriously still cannot stand to hear or play this song, more owing to that embarrassing memory than to issues of quality.
Same goes for "Now Thank We All Our God". We were "taught" it in 5th grade by a rather disliked teacher, who sang it so off-key that I barely recognized the melody when I heard it in church. Still, I today cannot hear that hymn without also hearing Mrs. Madison's caterwauling - and thus, I hate to sing or play it. -
I am not so concerned about whether OCP music (or the like) is not good music, but rather that too many people are entertained by fun melodies and accompaniments. They forget that the voice is the only God-made instrument. I know with our former director, "choir" rehearsals were in rehearsing 90% instrumentalists (guitarists, pianists, drummers) while the singers sat and twiddled their thumbs, rather than concentrating on the choir. By the time the director was satisfied with the musicians, most of the singers had either left or become so bored by the whole rehearsal, that they did not give 100%. At the same time, however, this complacency filtered into sacred music when I took over. While I spend 100% of my choir rehearsal in working with the choir (I practice, of course, on my own), the choir is still used to being able to do as they please during rehearsals because the attention for so long was paid on musicians. Now, that is only part of my problem, of course. But, I think it still deserves a mention on this forum.Thanked by 1Gavin
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Excellent point @ instrumental music being given precedence over choral music. That really helps connect the dots for me. Back in the day I remember many parishes had large adult choirs, but over the years, the SATB choir has dwindled away, and I've always wondered why. I never realized (duh!) that it's because the nature of liturgical music changed so drastically.
The ever-ubiquitous Praise and Worship music doesn't lend itself to singing in parts and the incorporation of various folk instruments effectively replaced the need for a choir. -
Same goes for "Now Thank We All Our God". We were "taught" it in 5th grade by a rather disliked teacher, who sang it so off-key that I barely recognized the melody when I heard it in church. Still, I today cannot hear that hymn without also hearing Mrs. Madison's caterwauling - and thus, I hate to sing or play it.
Gavin, you know, of course, that's an irrational rationale.Thanked by 1Gavin -
Can I clear up something before we go all tangential for the zillioneth time: THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL AS "OCP MUSIC."
Every time such a shibboleth (that's like hermaneutic and lacuna, words that irritate me) is dropped into a conversation or argument, we aid and abet the notion that this forum cannot seriously discuss specific works because of ridiculously large biases.
It's totally fine when RS, Gavin or Adam lay on the couch and say "Here I am Lord" gave me nightmares. Fine, we got something to talk about.
It also fine to lay a laurel wreath around Randy DeBruyn and say "Wow, Randy, 'In Perfect Charity' is a great song!" They both are found in the same hymnal, so what's "OCP Music?" It would seem to me that these very fruitful analyses of hymn texts and melodies are dissuading us from such shotgun, prejudicial attitudes. Off the box. YMMV -
If Liam didn't just make it up like Cab Calloway invented "copasetic" (didya know that?) then I'd go hunting for Sylvester the Cat. Sylvester thaying thyih-bo-leth would just make my day.
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Calling Bill O'Reilly, king of pithy.
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THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL AS "OCP MUSIC."
Agreed. It was an over-simplification based on what a previous poster had mentioned. As my comment was discussing my emotional vs. intellectual reactions, I decided against trying to academically categorize the precise kind of music about which I was speaking, but it seems most of us got the general idea... -
This is why I tend to pepper my generalizations with phrases like "for lack of a better thing to call it" or "not exactly, but you know what I mean."
Apparently, it also helps to say "in my opinion" or "it seems to me," since people can't seem to understand that anything a person says is, of course, their own opinion or point of view. (At least, that's how it seems to me.)Thanked by 1SkirpR -
Apparently, it also helps to say "in my opinion" or "it seems to me," since people can't seem to understand that anything a person says is, of course, their own opinion or point of view. (At least, that's how it seems to me.)
Yes!!! I remember having this problem as far back as high school. I would say something that was clearly not a matter of fact, and certain sensitive people would try to argue, "but that's just your opinion!" To which I would reply, "Of course, I said it, didn't I?"
Adam, you and I seem to be becoming forum buds... we should meet at some point. -
I think we should have a colloquium on Alcatraz one summer. It's really a cool place, great acoustics, a monastic feel to the accomodations...spirits floating about, Birdman's legacy, Capone, what's not to like?
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To the original point, I do worry about our being "elitist". Or perhaps not so much elitist as "obsessed weirdos." Let's face it: normal people don't care about any of this. Ever talk to your relatives about what you do? It's hard to go any farther than "I'm a musician" before you sound like a kook. "So this cantor wants me to do On Eagle's Wings, WHICH IS AN ACT OF MANIFEST HERESY AGAINST THE BLOOD OF HOLY MOTHER CHURCH!!!!!" And our interlocutor blinks awkwardly a few times and says "I like when they do new songs but also old songs..." (headasplodes)
Take a look at the comments on this other blog I enjoy and see if any of this seems normal: http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/20/sticky-into-darkness-open-week-thread-polls/
I'm not saying that the worship of Almighty God is as trivial as phony time-travel hypotheses and canon arguments (though we do have canon law...). After all, no one ever faults a mechanic for being too obsessed about cars. But do we occasionally need to take a step back and say "maybe we CAN use newly-composed Latin monody" or "the world won't come to an end if we sing a communion hymn"? Perhaps.
That's kind of the reflection this topic provokes in me.Thanked by 1Adam Wood -
Wow!! Okay, okay, okay......no such thing as "OCP" music. We all know, of course, to what I was referencing (at least I hope we do).
But, I will say, perhaps the correction to my comment is exactly what this thread is about. Are we an "elitist" group? In other threads, my comments have sometimes been pulled apart by incorrect spelling (which was only because my keyboard sometimes skips and I should have checked prior to hitting "post".
If you'd like me to cite specific works in the future, I will do so, but the post will be longer than anybody is going to want to read.Thanked by 1Gavin
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