American Catholicism And How Its TenTacles Strangle Liturgy
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Chonak suggested that I get another thread going on this subject, the beginnings of which are found in the comment below, (from the thread, "What is the purpose of hymnody in the Roman Rite Mass (OF)?"

    I alluded to the fact that the REAL problem is American Catholicism, which has run us completely off the tracks. "Americanism" was identified and condemned by Leo XIII in his encyclical Testem benevolentiae (can be read here:}

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm)

    The following article, which mentions a significant new book (American Church) uncovers the tennents of this kind of thinking.

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/catholicism-in-america-in-progress-or-regress

    I went on to say this also on the other thread:

    "You cannot disconnect the problem of American Catholic hymnals with the deeper root problem, AmChurch, one and the same philosophical issue. Catholics in America, and in cahoots with our present cadre of longstanding hymnal publishers, compose their own tangential theology to that of the Church. It is why we have the constant liturgical carnage in our parishes. It is also why we can constantly 'spin' out new theology and insert it into the Mass at four different points throughout (the hymn sandwich). Our hymnals, in a sense, are the trojan horses that hijack the liturgy en masse.

    You are what you eat, and you believe what you sing. That is a LARGE reason why Catholics today don't even know their faith and even less how to defend it against corruption, and why our hymnals are 'full of it', and bereft of authentic sacred liturgical music.

    In short, what I am saying is that The Purpose of Hymnody in the Roman Rite Mass is to promote the AmChurch philosophy. It gets 1000% worse when it is superimposed on pop style music, which is ALSO considered 'hymnody'. It's the perfect ruse to present anything one wants in the name of creativity and innovation completely apart from the very authority of Rome."
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    francis, I'm still reading the Shaw book. Have you read it entirely, just for my curiosity's sake? I'm quite sure when I get further, issues regarding VII, Mass attendance, seminary demographics etc. will be addressed. That always happens in the sociological studies books of American Catholics I've studied.
    As an aside tho'
    It's the perfect ruse to present anything one wants in the name of creativity and innovation
    to me could also describe the current state of affairs with Italian composers based in Rome writing those insidious faux-classic polyphonic interpolations to the Angelis "Gloria." Even moreso, wasn't that, how do you say ?- a dreck of a hymn anthemic to the Year of Evangelization written by an Italian?
    I'd say that it wouldn't be difficult to find analogues of the same aesthetic deteriation in many solidly Catholic countries/nationalities worldwide. We can't say that the golden era that was indeed transplanted into the Latin Americas, the Phillipines or even North Africa didn't eventually give sway to nativistic elements which eventually prevailed over European sensibilities. Even European sensibilities within the Church couldn't keep the lines solidly demarcated between evolving forms, eventually resulting in a sort of second Trent-like event, MT Tra le sollecitudine.
    The thing that makes it tough for us, as I mentioned before, and which Shaw is outlining, is the reconciliation between the plurality and ethnic influences that define "Americanism" and how that influences the industry of the Church in the USA.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes. Just about finished. But I have been onto this subject for twenty years or more in the study of new age and Masonry which is another level below American Church and was also condemned in early 20th century encyclicals on modernism and Masonry itself. They are dusty titles in my library, but I will dig them up also.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Oh, no. Conspiracy theories in the house. ;-)
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Run Charles. Your sentence above, "Oh, no. Conspiracy theories in the house. ;-)" is the primary ruse utilized to discredit books like this, AND the encyclicals of popes. The facts are all there, and they can't be denied or brushed aside with a smirk any longer.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Those have never scared me. I think there are problems in the Church in America, but to lay them at the feet of hymns is a real stretch.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS

    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X
    ON THE DOCTRINES
    OF THE MODERNISTS

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pius X is quite dead, and so are some of the problems he addressed. They didn't all die, however, and some additional problems have taken their places. I look at poor seminary training - getting better, I think - and poor catechesis in churches and schools as bigger issues underlying many other problems. But hymns? Not good hymns. Some of the timeless Anglican hymns are as doctrinally sound as any chanted propers, and maybe more pleasant to listen to, at times.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Ruth Lapeyre
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    melo

    Dreck is everywhere. True sacred music is even confused within the walls of the Vatican. That, however, is not the subject at hand. The derailment of the liturgy and faith IS.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles said:

    But hymns? Not good hymns. Some of the timeless Anglican hymns are as doctrinally sound as any chanted propers, and maybe more pleasant to listen to, at times.


    And this statement is why confusion reigns concerning authentic sacred music. Because "hymns are king" to the point where they have completely displaced the text of the Mass, and as I said before (even back to the beginning of this forum), are the trojan horse to the very fabric of sacred music in the liturgy.

    And might I be so bold to say that your allusion to 'dead popes' is very telling about what you think of things past.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pope St. Snotwiggle preserve us! LOL. Popes reflect their times, as do we. Hymns are not "king," I use both hymns and propers. They work quite well together, with propers for the choir to sing, and hymns for the congregation - and I am not talking about "Gather Us In on the Edmund Fitzgerald," either.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I am with Charles. My parish uses hymns each Sunday, and the congregation and clergy sing with gusto. No one leaves early.

    Now, mind, these are real hymns, not cheapie songs.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles:

    I am seeing it this way:

    Popes (good ones) reflect the faith, not the times, and speak timeless truth. The encyclicals fell on deaf ears, and it is NOW that we are reaping the consequences.

    Hymns (and mostly the worst of them) ARE king in the 'music books' that fill 99.99% of our parish pews. So your saying they are not king simply is not true.

    I am glad you use both "hymns and propers", but the prescription for authentic liturgical music is chant (and that does mean Gregorian), organ and polyphony (perhaps with an occasional hymn), don't we agree on that point?

    Many things 'work quite well together but it doesn't make it right. ...and Rodney King is known to have said, "can't we all just get along?"
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Paul:

    I play and love and compose hymns too!!!! But that is NOT the primary prescription for liturgical music in the Latin rite. That is simply the point we try to make here on this forum over and over.

    And the more poignant point is that Alius Cantus Aptus is king (hymns), and should not be, and allows the influx of everything and anything goes depending upon the ilk and likes of a particular pastor or musician. That is ethos of Americanism that I am pointing to in the content above.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Chant, polyphony, and as desired organ are the foundations of Latin Church music, no argument there. But the Church also admits other music which is suitable. If they serve the glorification of God and the sanctification of the people and are not of dubious quality, both artistically and theologically (lyrics), what is the problem, as long as the foundation (chant first, as desired, also choral polyphony and organ) remains?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    The foundation does not remain. Only hymns do (and mostly attrocious ones at that). That is my point.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I guess I am fortunate to be at one one of the few Catholic parishes in this country where it does (okay, we use minor propers as proper to the Anglican Use).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Run Charles. Your sentence above, "Oh, no. Conspiracy theories in the house. ;-)" is the primary ruse utilized to discredit books like this, AND the encyclicals of popes. The facts are all there, and they can't be denied or brushed aside with a smirk any longer.


    image
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  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I am not going to say that the four hymn sandwich causes all of the problems of the Church. But may I suggest that some of the cheapie, childish songs lead some people to have disregard for the Divine Liturgy of the Latin Church? Add to this some priests' desire to add their own "personality" to the Mass ("Let the Church say, AAA-men!"). To avoid this latter problem is why I think the entire dialogue should be sung between priest and faithful.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood CharlesW francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Do keep in mind that I don't do the EF mass, so I make no effort to follow that formula. My OF masses are in line with the Revised Roman Missal, GIRM, and a pastor who doesn't allow deviations. I am with you, Paul, and I guess I am fortunate, as well.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Poor Giorgio A. Tsoukalos. He doesn't get much respect.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Poor Giorgio A. Tsoukalos. He doesn't get much respect.

    Well, you know who to blame, right?
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    The man is a PROFESSOR, fer cryin' aloud!!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Of what?
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  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    He thinks that ancient astronauts interacted with early humans. Me thinks that he is certifiable to a mental hospital.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    But if the aliens never came here, how did they build everything?
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  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Adam, clearly the atoms and molecules of soon to be living things assembled themselves to make the first beings. Didn't you take biology? :)

    Now, what does this all have to do with liturgy again?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Now, what does this all have to do with liturgy again?


    Hymns are a conspiracy against orthodoxy.
    Or something.

    Aliens.
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The way current trends are going, I sometimes wonder if old-fashioned hymn-lovers like myself will soon be considered the liturgical equivalent of pot-smokers, but I guess I'm a bit defensive of standard hymns after being in an OF parish for 15 years where nothing but Praise and Worship-style music was imposed on us.

    After transitioning to the Latin Mass at a different parish, I fell in love with the propers and chant masses, but hymns were strictly proscribed, and I seriously wondered how I could survive the next Christmas without a single Christmas carol or the next Easter without a hymn in sight. As much as I love Gregorian chant, a steady diet of it was just too austere and monastic for someone newly come from the OF and a lover of choral music.

    Happily, when I came to our present Latin Mass venue, I was given the job of choosing the music and I revel in the wealth of music material available and always look forward to choosing the weekly hymns from my Catholic and Anglican hymnals.

    In an EF situation, I believe a classic vernacular hymn or two at the beginning and end of Mass is a very helpful way to reach people on an affective level and that it's beneficial to combine different elements of sacred music.

    Actually, if you consider that a full EF Missa Cantata has a total of 16 musical pieces, here are the percentages of the different elements:

    Vernacular hymns 12.5%
    Ordinary of the Mass from the Kyriale 44%
    Propers from the Graduale Romanum 31%
    Polyphony (Latin) 12.5%

    Not a bad mix, there's something for everyone, and, obviously, Gregorian chant and the propers get the lion's share, which is as it should be according to the preconciliar Popes and the postconciliar liturgical documents.
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  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    My OF masses are in line with the Revised Roman Missal, GIRM, and a pastor who doesn't allow deviations. I am with you, Paul, and I guess I am fortunate, as well.


    @CharlesW--That is refreshing to hear.

    Paul said: "But the Church also admits other music which is suitable."

    After the Proper is sung, what could "suitable" refer to in option 4 regarding other musical selections during Communion? My reading of GIRM 87 makes me think "suitable" could refer to three things:

    a) it says "cf. no. 86," which mentions the "spiritual union of the communicants by means of the unity of their voices" (which would be fulfilled by a hymn)

    b) approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop

    c) specifically sung by "the choir alone or by the choir or a cantor with the people"


    Just curious, CharlesW (or anyone): Since you are in the fortunate situation that you have described, what is your take on the common practice of regularly planning solo pieces (not as an occasional exception, but as a regular practice)? If solo singing is not considered to be a deviation from the Revised Roman Missal and the GIRM, then do you know of any documentation that supports the use of pieces designed for and sung as a solo during the Mass?
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    Pius X is quite dead

    Actually, Saint Pius is only a bit dead.
    He's mostly alive.
    Thanked by 6David Sullivan chonak Adam Wood Kathy Andrew Motyka CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pius X is with the aliens. Actually, I think pretty highly of him, but in his zeal for reform, he may have forced many problems in the Church underground. They later emerged in worse form.

    Ignoto, I play while the choir receives communion. You would have to see our building arrangement and set-up to see why that is necessary. The only time I have had solos is during that time. After the choir has received and had a moment to give thanks, then I begin the actual communion music.
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  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    We Catholics live and have lived in a predominantly Protestant country, I would think that may have something to do with the use of hymns during Mass.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    More to the point, we live in a country whose culture was very deeply moulded by cultures that placed a very high value on singing by the people. Spit in the wind if you care to do so.

    And Pius X is alive in ways he probably would have been surprised by (which is often the case with these things): his drive to resacramentalize the faithful had consequences that are still evolving, even if he himself would not have foreseen them.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    No doubt, Pius X accomplished quite a bit. But he even said himself, when congratulated on his accomplishments, that what he fought against would come back in a more virulent form.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Well, I think the application of that to this is silly.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think the whole topic of this thread is silly. American Catholicism has accomplished much good. It isn't the source of all that is wrong in the Church. Remember that the Europeans had a shot at the Church long before Americans got the chance.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    To be fair to Francis (Francesco non Papa?), one of the big problems that I see with AmChurch is the basic assimilationist, go-along-to-get-along, mentality that leaves religion at the doore of the church only to be picked up again next Saturday evening. The idea that we are American Catholics has wreaked great havoc; its why the USCCB is impotent and most directives are politically motivated, why the nuns are running around protesting and worshiping Gaia. Archbichop Chaput reminded us recently that we are Catholic Americans, that our faith should come first, and that everything that we do should be informed by our faith - even whom we vote for. We are Catholics first.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I am no church historian, so the following (like everything I say) is just my opinion (but probably even less informed than my usual ramblings), but I'll go ahead and say it anyway (since this is the internet)...

    It seems to me that one of the biggest problems with America Catholicism is the belief that the US (or the English-speaking world) is the most important part of the church, or that it should be if it isn't.

    (The assertion that the English translation of the Roman Missal is the best place to hash out theological issues is a prime example of this sort of thing. If it ought to say "for all," then they ought to change the Latin, not mistranslate it.)

    It further seems to me that brother Francis is asserting that this US-centrism is the worst thing, and that it is ruining the whole Church, and is the cause of all the other problems in the entire Catholic world.

    Which seems to me to be a remarkably US-centric view of the Church's problems.
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  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,032
    @JulieColl

    I wish I could worry as much as you about the disappearance of hymns! I've been fed a steady diet of 4 hymns per mass, every mass, every week, for many decades. with no end in sight!

    I, too, attended an EF mass for a number of years, but didn't miss the Christmas carols, as I sang them at home, at parties, caroling around the neighborhood - not to mention hearing them endlessly at the mall. I always wondered why they had to sing them at mass so much, without ever hearing a single note of chant.

    Having said all this, I couldn't agree with you more that the ratio of various kinds of music in a EF high mass that you list is just about right, and should be a guide to a sung mass in the OF.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Assimilationism is not a specifically *American* disease by any stretch of the imagination. It has a deep history in the Church, back to the very first generation of Christians. Adam's point is well-taken. I would add that one very American (and very non-Roman) thing it is expect high coherence of reality to law (not limited to Americans, shared in the Anglosphere and Germanic cultures, but Americans (across the spectrum - there are progressive flavors of this, too) are the ones most prone to whine incessantly about the failure of expectations to be realized).

    PS: People who have to minister to people will be frustrated if such ministers derive more delight from decoding and adhering to patterns and norms than from the surprises that can arise without regard to patterns and norms. Because we minister to people, not ideas. For ministers who are more motivated by ideas than persons, ministry is a cross. (Maybe one we are called to in order to teach us certain lessons that we'd rather not learn.)
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    It might be of interest to know that this dynamic has occurred before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicanism
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Except that the core of Gallicanism was residue from the Investiture Controversy (something which, btw, is much alive (unbenowst to many) in places like China, but for all the problems with things like Obamacare in the USA is *not* on point in the American context - no secular authority here is trying to take control over the choice of bishops and related core issues).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I guess Chonak's right, no one reads my posts anymore...
    I concur with Liam that this thread topic is a straw man who eventually will bonfire out. This subject has a long, tenuous history (which francis knows) and cannot at all be reduced to sloganeering or dictum answers. And it is pertinent to the thread that enculturation and assimilation is a global and history phenomenon. It can be allowed that the American Catholic experience stands unique because of the history of bishops and others who envisioned the moral principles of our country as ideally suited for the full expression of catholic truth and beauty to bloom in a morally just citizenry. But as exemplified by the appropriation of Abp. Chaput's quote above, reducing the tension between the politics of the institutional church and those of any nation, slave or free, can't be solved by the reordering which title comes first between two names. Need proof? Three processional movements in Mass, four music options each discussed in this very thread, some will argue to the last breath there's a heirarchical taxonomy to those options, others will demand written proof of that. Tho' I acknowledge the wisdom of the former opinion, I acknowledge the truth of the second. When will we be more concerned with the effects of our mission, rather than the affects?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    When will we be more concerned with the effects of our mission, rather than the affects?


    This.

    I like to think that all those who obsess of liturgical details do so desirous of the effects, or (perhaps more fittingly) do so trusting that the Holy Spirit has guided the Church to the right affects, acknowledging their own inability to improve upon the decisions made by "the democracy of the dead."

    I like to think that about myself.

    I don't know that it is always accurate, though- about any of us.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Well, at some point, some of the dead decided to "improve" on decisions made by their fellow democrats.

    I don't buy into a rationalizing providentialism (that is, anything that is, has been permitted by divine providence, so that it should never be changed) any more than I buy into a rationalizing spirit of improvement (that is, anything that has not been changed is merely an opportuntity for further improvement). If we know our moods and our tendencies in those moods, we should take inventory of our cognitive-spiritual blindspots and our immense capacity for rationalization according to our preferences.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    My MAIN point is that any one of us can compose a hymn today that contains the philosophy of "the god of our own understanding" and use it at Mass tomorrow without any repercussions, or scrutiny by the Church before the fact. That is the kind of "inspired by the HS" baloney that continues to rattle our liturgies to the core. Not only that, but we can arrange it for 1-4-5 rock combo and STILL get away with it, at least four times during the liturgy, any day at any time, just because it falls into the category of a "hymn". That is just plain bass ackwards... And ENGLISH in thinking if you want to make this deeper and wider than Americanism.



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  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I agree that a lot of stuff passes off as "hymnody" that really shouldn't; you will find no argument from me there. What I do not support is the wholesale removal of it from all Masses in all places.

    I just think that those who desire to write it need to do a much better job. Who teaches hymnody to music/theology students these days? Some of this dribble is teetering very, very closely to the New Age.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    No disagreement with you on that, Francis!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    francis, could you do an old man's OC behavior a favor (rhyming.....)
    Could you edit the title to add "t' to "tentacles?" It's driving me kwazy.
    And prithee, dear readers, ponder ye nay further what rhymes with tentacles. Ye be properly warn-ed!
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Charles, you are wicked. I like that! LOL.
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