Hymn Text revisions in Worship IV
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Conclusion-

    Any of the general statements made above about intentions or ideologies or whatever might, or might not, be true. However, this hymn text in particular does not, to me, seem evidence of any such thing (with the possible exception of "mankind" in 3.4). It strikes me as simply an example of the sort of prudent editing that makes the creation of new hymnals a worthwhile endeavor in the first place.

    To the notion that any editing at all is indicative of some liberal plot (or whatever), or that this represents an affront to the artistic/literary integrity of the original author, and that therefore all texts should remain in their original form... this is hogwash. Texts adopted from Protestant sources need to be scrubbed for theology, and language that has gone out of fashion sometimes needs to be updated just to be sensible. And worse than words that no longer have an meaning ("ebenezer") and can therefore be explained- many texts have language which simply means or at least implies something completely different now than it did originally ("pompous"). And the notion of literary integrity is a completely modern idea- during the time when most of these texts were written, stealing, borrowing, plagiarizing, and adapting were considered completely normal. And besides- hymnals are not critical anthologies for study in a literature class. They are books to be used.

    Someone should take the time to work through an entire hymnal and deal with these issues- studying, following up, asking the editors, exploring earlier versions. But the thrust of this thread reminds me a little bit too much of the TV News proclivity of interpreting (or inventing) facts in order to support a narrative of outrage. It is, frankly, a little embarrassing to see among people I respect and consider to be friends.
    Thanked by 3Liam redsox1 melofluent
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    The amberizing of music is in no small part the result of early modern developments such as the Petrarchian notion of ad fontes, the advent of the printing press and copyright. Still, hymn texts have often been modulated over the generations.

    I would suggest the problem with "re-ascends" in the mind of ordinary English speakers is simpler: merely that it implies there was a prior ascending event (from where, and when?* ), and folks who bother to think about the word scratch their heads, as it were.

    * I don't think that particular phrase itself draws the immediate comparison of Christ's ascent to his Cross with his ascent to Heaven. The hymn text later implies this very important comparison, but not that line itself. People who are alert may wonder, hmm, was the Transfiguration the prior event? Hmm.... Et cet.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The amberizing of music is in no small part the result of early modern developments such as the Petrarchian notion of ad fontes, the advent of the printing press and copyright. Still, hymn texts have often been modulated over the generations.


    This.

    The notion that there is some platonic ideal version of the text is silly.
    All these texts are but shadows of the New Song sung before the Lamb.
    While some are better than others, none are absolutely the Real Thing.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Sidenotes:

    1
    I'm of the opinion that the weaknesses and not-quite-there-yet problems of the W4 (and all other ) editions could have been overcome by subjecting the work to an open, public, peer review process, such as I (and some others) routinely engage in here.

    2
    If publishers of church music embraced Open Source techniques and modern technology, decisions about these things could be made at a more granular level, allowing MDs and parish clergy to find a way that works best for them, and even (I hesitate to mention) the whole enterpise could more easily respond to changes suggested, requested, or required by hierarchs and other guardians of orthodoxy and good taste.
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  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    The same could be said for All Creatures of Our God and King. If eliminating (or at least significantly reducing) the use of the masculine pronoun wasn't the reason, why don't we sing "O Praise Him" anymore. There are countless such examples where the text changes are seemingly agenda driven or at least not carefully thought through despite all the claims to the contrary.


    Precisely. I don't think the current offering in Worship & Gather is much of an improvement over the endless "Alleluias" found in numerous GIA hymnals of late (going all the way back to the original Gather Comprehensive), and I would like to understand the rationale behind the current word usage. Why not just go back to singing "O Praise Him" like we did in Worship 3? If not for some agenda, then why the need for another text change?

    Same goes for Faith of Our Fathers/Living Faith. I've never seen an explanation for that one.

    When we make a hymnal change later this year, at least we'll have our missalettes to fall back on for these two items - which retain the older traditional texts.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Same goes for Faith of Our Fathers/Living Faith. I've never seen an explanation for that one.


    It's not a redaction. It is a different text, inspired by the original.
    Like it, hate it, think it's a liberal plot.
    But it is not an example of changing a text. It's a whole new text.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    Adam

    A further thought. This weekend, I was driving and heard on the radio a recording of Mozart's second horn concerto, a piece I used to perform back in my instrumentalist years. During the rondo, the performer did something wonderful: at the end of each iteration in the rondo before the last, he inserted a lovely little cadenza. Now, there are canonical moments for cadenzas in the Mozart horn concerti (a biblical quartet for hornists). This was not that. But. The moment I heard this my reaction was: of course. Mozart's horn concerti are infamous (at least among hornists) for their humor (the first concerto includes a parody of a chant line from the Good Friday liturgy, and Mozart wrote off-color jabs at his soloist in the margins on the original scores...), and the last thing Mozart would do would be to want them to be amberized (however, if you change them, you better do with such skill that it seems as if you amplified rather than detracted from his work. Most hymn writers are not the level of Mozart; the question is whether revisers have at least the skill level of them they are editing.)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    PS: While I revere Bach, there's a lot about Hadyn that just blows me away that others Great Masters do not: the technical brilliance and creativity, combined with fundamental sanity (unusual with the brilliant and creative) and humanity that allows him to laugh with us rather than at us. I wish Haydn's music were pumped into our security and commodity exchange floors: if Bach is the Fifth Evangelist, Haydn is the Apostle of Sanity:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udPddgVKzLg
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Haydn is the Apostle of Sanity

    Interesting. Two data points:
    1. I've always considered Haydn's music to have a sense of humor not so much present in Bach etc.
    2. I recently read GKC's Othodoxy, which (if I remember correctly) suggests that a sense of humor is essentially a requirement to sanity, and that "the mad" are mad not so much for a lack of rationality but rather because of an overabundance of the same.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Somehow I have lived my Catholic life without ever seeing or singing this hymn, so I suppose I have the benefit of approaching it afresh. That said, I will readily agree with Adam's lengthy post above that the W3 version is clearly the best. To be sure, the original may well have worked better ca. 1750, but the sun has long since set on terms like "pompous triumph" and "ravished" in the sense understood by Wesley. On a couple of specific points:


    RE-ASCENDS HIS NATIVE HEAV'N: Such an appropriate lyric for the great Feast of the Re-Ascension. What? We don't call it that? Oh, hm. As to "native," nowadays I find it evocative of spears and loincloths. Obviously this line is retained in W3; as to W4, Adam asks, "Is it really 'the'? Seems like 'the' would make more sense." I think the "the" indicates the unique place of the ascended Christ, as separate from the lower heavens inhabited by the angels and saints.

    With respect to the argument above between Kathy and Fr. Krisman, Fr. Krisman is right that the God-Man was never really in Heaven to begin with, and thus cannot really "re-ascend" it. He is wrong, though, (1) in that the verse itself does not say "God-Man," and, as MHI shows, it is not any sort of severe theological error to talk about "Christ" before the incarnation, and (2) in that there is no reason to take "re-ascends" so literally, just as we do not take "rose again from the dead" as literally implying that Christ had risen from the dead once before.

    In any event, Kathy certainly did not school anybody on Christology; she seems to have gotten schooled herself, and justly so. In most schools her tone would get her a time-out in the corner.

    In the end, I confess I am surprised that anybody finds "re-ascends his native heav'n" to be "beautiful" and "euphonic." I find it clunky and unappealing. I'm sure if I had grown up with the original wording I might feel differently about it, though.


    SEE, HE SHEWS THE PRINTS OF LOVE: For what it's worth, "shew" has been pronounced "show" (not "shoe") since around 1700, or before the date of this hymn; it serves as just an (archaic) variant spelling. As to "the prints of love," I guess those are the stigmata? "Prints" sounds superficial and fake, and that's even if you don't take it as referring to fingerprints or art prints. "Wounds" is a significant improvement.


    STILL HE CALLS MANKIND HIS OWN: Setting aside the obvious motive of political correctness, the change to "the world" is a great blow to the meaning of the line and the stanza. Probably the worst single change worked in either of the Worship versions.


    HIM THOUGH HIGHEST HEAVEN RECEIVES: That ordinary people such a construction easily can understand, not so sanguine am I. Anyway, it was bad writing even in Wesley's day; that is to say, nobody wrote such a thing unless defeated by the constraints of rhyme and meter. The same goes for --


    HARBINGER OF HUMAN RACE: Poor English. Nor is "harbinger" really the right word for Christ anyway. I suppose the sense intended is that he was the first member of the human race to get to heaven (that's not true, though). But a harbinger is better thought of as a messenger. The OED says, "One that goes before and announces the approach of some one; a forerunner." Christ did not ascend to Heaven to announce our imminent arrival like some sort of messenger-boy.


    THE SWITCH FROM 3RD to 2ND PERSON: One or the other please; not both. This can work when the final portion is manifestly a prayer. The final portion of this hymn is manifestly not a prayer, though, so the switch creates a strange muddle -- and all the more so in the original, since, as Fr. Krisman explains, in the 9th stanza (not included here) Wesley unaccountably flipped back from the second to the third person.


    CHANGES FROM W3 to W4: See Christ. See Christ rise. Rise, Christ, rise! --That is all.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    Adam

    Here's a good spiritual rule of thumb: when tempted to be outraged, before you do anything, first listen to the second movement of Haydn's Emperor Quartet or other work that might have a similar effect (for example, oh, the Zerfliesse aria, and then the final chorus and chorale from Bach's St John Passion - for all the glories of the St Matthew Passion, it's the St John Passion that has that most wonderful set up for Easter).
  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    But it is not an example of changing a text. It's a whole new text.

    That's kind of how I explained it to my pastor when pitching hymnals, and indicating the need for our missalettes to include a music selection as well.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Adam, in your response to my last post, I was trying to figure out what on earth blue text meant! I know purple text, but not blue; then I figured out it was a link. (This shows how technologically incompetent I am.) For the record, I do not agree with that change in the melody, frankly I find it awkward. And I also prefer it in Holden's orginal Tenor-tune version.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd7ru_3Yn3w
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Video: Love it.

    And also, I disagree with JMO's changing of the tune as well.
    I think the imposition of a particular sense of European Classical aesthetics on genres like Shape Note tunes and (yes!) Gregorian Chant has been on the whole a bad thing for Christian music.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    I don't really blame Mark or anyone else who feels that "tone" is the most important thing in this conversation. You may simply not be aware of the extraordinarily perilous time that orthodox Christology has just barely been able to survive over the last 30 years, despite the best efforts of Orbis Books and professional theological organizations, thanks be to God and Cardinal Ratzinger/ Pope Benedict. To think that an inadequate (putting it very politely) Christology might be informing any aspect of the liturgy is quite a terrifying matter. We're not in school. This is part of the real life teaching ministry of the Catholic Church.
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    You ain't just a whistlin' "Dixie," sister Kathy above. I'm just through the first couple of chapters of Russell Shaw's The Remarkable Rise, Meteoric Fall, and Uncertain Future of Catholicism in America and I'm scared witless with each successive page.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I strongly agree with Kathy about the possible danger and the need for vigilance and even strenuous defense of orthodoxy.

    I disagree (I think (?) ) with her regarding whether the text revisions discussed above need to be defended against. From a strictly theological standpoint, I think the editors of W3&4 improved on the original. Which isn't surprising, since Wesley was not, in point of fact, a Catholic.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Charles, try reading Roger Haight sometime (shudders).

    By the way, no fair, Sacred Harp altos have more fun than Catholic altos.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    From a strictly theological standpoint, I think the editors of W3&4 improved on the original. Which isn't surprising, since Wesley was not, in point of fact, a Catholic.


    I am agreeing with Adam, which in itself could be one of the signs of the end times. Oh, well...
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Melo Charles, ordering the book right now. It's available on Kindle. Sounds like a must read.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I am agreeing with Adam, which in itself could be one of the signs of the end times.


    I would stock up on canned goods if I were you.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Nah, too much BPA. I will just hang around the Mormons and look like convert material. LOL. They always have food.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Spriggo
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    By the way, no fair, Sacred Harp altos have more fun than Catholic altos.


    I think everyone has more fun than Catholic Altos.

    (I married one, BTW).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    I like the improved clarity of the W3 version (though I would have retained the last verse from the original), but I don't see what Adam means about theological improvement. Was there some in the W3 version, or was that (in Adam's view) mainly in the W4?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I compared the W4 text to the original. Some of those changes I discussed had actually occurred already in W3. I didn't have time to do a full-on tripartite comparison. And the improvements I speak of are minor issues of clarification (ravished, taken, awhile, etc).

    I didn't really think there was anything theologically deficient in the original, but I think the final form in W4 was more clear.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Canned tomatoes are high in lycopene, so depending on how much you like canned tomatoes, it might work out.
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Enough said. Let's move on to a Pentecost Hymn. Any suggestions?
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • MHIMHI
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  • MHIMHI
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