Another important article putting Francis in context
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I hope everyone read, in detail and with a spirit of charity, the excellent article on Jorge Bergoglio and the Liturgy in Argentina over on ChantCafe posted by Kathleen Pluth. Here is another article that should help people see him as a model for how to deal with a hostile environment.

    What I worry about is that all the negativity, among many other things, gives the game away to people with other designs. A perfectly lovely musician I know with no concern about Church arguments offered lightly that she had heard the Pope was going to "do away with all that," meaning Chant. Obviously, she had heard that from "liberals" that she knows--obviously, because of the way she said it and because I know who she listens to on such things. She herself loves chant, by the way. There is no sign that he has any intention of replacing Massimo Palombella, a key point, I would think. Yet by jumping to the conclusion that he was going to "do away with all that," Chant supporters just handed "opponents" a talking point.

    Then there's this: what the world sees is a very loving man. If people who are working to restore Chant appear to view that as irrelevant and speak bitterly about the man himself, then they will think that Chant people are unconcerned with the things that Francis is concerned with and that will not look good.

    Just some food for thought on a what is, in DC, a glorious Mother's Day.

    Blessings.

    Kenneth

    http://www.newsmaxworld.com/newswidget/pope-saints-abortion/2013/05/12/id/504004?promo_code=F492-1&utm_source=Test_Newsmax_Feed&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1



    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Andrew Motyka
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    The problem with Bermudez's article is that it relies on false facts to make its point.

    As a Catholic, I absolutely obey Pope Francis and I also love him dearly. He above most everyone else is not well served by falsifications of his record in Buenos Aires.
    Thanked by 2Aristotle Esguerra Gavin
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Well, discount that part of the article, then.

    But the part that people are so wrongly discounting is the larger one: the difficulties he faced against the Liberationists. That just seems to be unimportant to some, but it is not. He held the line against them as Jesuit provincial for two terms. When he stepped down, the Left one, I am sure with promises to "end the fighting," and promptly shipped him off to teach high school. JPII then responded by making him Archbishop, and I, for one, am looking forward to all the leaks from his first meeting with the disobedient Jesuits who humiliated him.

    The Liberationists, as far as I am concerned, support mass murder as an end to social transformation. An end to that and the Ordinary Form properly said is quite an accomplishment. To say, :"Oh, that---why should I worry about that?" just seems wrong to me. (I am not saying you do, Chrism, but I am saying those who are crying so in fact sound as if they just don't care.)

    The writer makes the larger point quite well: if he brought order to the Ordinary Form, then the faithful are getting the full Mass at last and that should be our main concern. After that, if we are looking to encourage a deeper experience of the Mass, then that is something to be worked for.

    But let us not act as if the Ordinary Form is not JUST as valid, or inferior. I believe I would agree with all the points that Lauren Pristas apparently makes about the drafting of the Novus Ordo, (if I understand her point second hand; I am going to read the book.) I wish that the whole thing is being rethought (SLOWLY PLEASE) as has been rumored, and still rejoice that Bergoglio was able to do what he did.

    Kenneth
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    It's another case of us traditionalists being our own worst enemy. Sure we should consider What He Did As Bishop, but consider what he actually did, which was to prevent the diocese from diving into a Marxist sewer-hole never to return. He picked his battles in which, as much as I want to see a its restoration as widely as possible, the EF sat in the backlog in favor of making sure the diocese wasn't destroyed altogether. Yes, Liberals have spun a fanciful tale of "The Spirit of Pope Francis". This is thankfully starting to dissipate rapidly unlike the Spirit of Vatican II (more like the undead Nazgûl of Vatican II). Breathe into a paper bag people.
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Nazgul of Vatican II--- hysterical.
    Thanked by 1Ruth Lapeyre
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    But that is my point exactly. It's as if some people think, because their rector tries to stand in the way of a popular EF, they have somehow suffered more than Karol Wojtyla and Jorge Bergoglio. I sure HOPE that is not what people mean, but it can sure come across that way.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    And let me be even more radical: reportedly, Francis is indifferent to music because he is tone deaf. Fine. Indifference is great. We have Summum Pontificum. We have Francis's emphasis on the laity. So, parish by parish. Charlotte has a bishop that, last time I checked, was " all chant, all the time," and others have celebrated the EF. Be completely gracious about licit, properly done OFs, even if the music is just well-chosen lesser songs, and simply do our thing. No argumnent. With bishops who stand in the way, then 'let you light so shine before men..." As a lovely Dominican sister said, when I told her about this reaction: 'Oh, if peoplen would just listen!" And he has spoken on the role of the laity. That's our answer. Further action beyond the Motu proprio and keeping Papal Masses the way they are ---what exactly do people want?
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    How will it look to dismiss this?

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-surprises-40000-italian-pro-lifers-joins-rome-march-for-life
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "If people who are working to restore Chant... speak bitterly about the man himself, then... that will not look good."

    I do realize this is the case, and believe it or not I am concerned about it. But on the other hand, we can't just put on blinders or grasp at straws as the Francis-apologists here and elsewhere are doing.

    I think what is called for in the present moment is watchfulness and clarity. As I have consistently said, I don't believe Francis himself will do direct harm to the liturgy, as Paul VI did. But I still believe he's setting a terrible example of liturgical praxis. And I fear that he will embolden radical progressive forces. (Maybe "fear" isn't the right word, because I've SEEN this already!!) I'm also worried about what kinds of bishops he will appoint, though others have pointed out that he won't have a strong hand in it for a few years yet. And I miss the era of Benedict, with his exceptional and strong support for liturgy.

    I don't think Francis is going to repeal Summorum Pontificum (but don't ask me to bet that he won't...), and I don't think he's going to ban Latin or write giant puppets into the GIRM. But I still have my worries.

    I don't know. If the "other side" had said during Benedict, "We worry that he will embolden radical conservatives and set a poor liturgical example", would we need take exception to this? I don't think we need to hate him. I think we can celebrate the good he has done - his popularity, his consistent support of Catholic identity - and that he may yet do in reforming the curia. But at the same time, we should keep our eyes open.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I don't at all think that HHF's liturgical philsophy or practicum will at all affect, or roll down, to the quality or expression of our rituals locally.
    Friday I met our newest vicar from India. He came with our pastor and our retired monsignor to meet folks and concelebrate the culminating Mass of the 8th grade graduation retreat. We sat at lunch briefly and he charmingly asked if I could help with his chanting orations.
    On Sunday, his first Mass at the mother parish (contemporary mostly. with SEP's), at the end of "Hail the day..." he takes a pregnant moment of silence, and then a beautiful and lyric (no bravura) tenor starts chanting the "In Nomine." Well knock me over with a feather and call me a slack jaw yokel! It's about formation and seminaries, mentors and musicians who care. I might have to change my evil ways and work at sticking around a little longer to find more young guys like this one!
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "I don't at all think that HHF's liturgical philsophy or practicum will at all affect, or roll down, to the quality or expression of our rituals locally."

    He would be a rather unique pope if that were the case. Even JPI had a large impact on things. Not to mention Benedict XVI, Paul and John, and whatever the plural of "Pius" is - Piuses? Pii?

    I do differ from my fellow alarmists in that what I fear is a "trickle-down" effect, rather than the imposition of banality that others seem to fear.

    This Indian priest may have been influenced by Benedict XVI. As I've said before, and it bears repeating: Somewhere there is a man my age, maybe slightly younger, who excitedly watches this "simple" "humble" papacy. Francis's care for the poor, and shunning of traditional style and beauty strike a chord with this young man. He goes to seminary.

    15 years later, this man is my new boss, replacing a Benedict XVI priest, now angrily calling me into his office demanding to know why I'm spending $200 a week on staff singers, and raising money towards a million-dollar organ project. And what's with all this fancy Mozart, Bach, and Palestrina music?? That stuff doesn't speak to the poor. The poor need the money more than the church needs a music program.

    It may not happen to me. But it WILL happen to someone else. Maybe I'll have become a bartender by then. I'll cover the poor sap's tab when he comes in to relieve his sorrows, and commiserate.

    Is Francis to blame? No way. What he's doing is, at face value, right. But what is to blame is the signals he's unintentionally sending. And people ARE receiving them. I've met these people.

    Fear the Francis generation of priests.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Judas complained about money spent on worship and said that it would be better used for the poor.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Is Francis to blame? No way. What he's doing is, at face value, right. But what is to blame is the signals he's unintentionally sending. And people ARE receiving them. I've met these people. Fear the Francis generation of priests.


    Gavin, I reluctantly share with you my reaction to that as being similar to being warned by the John Birch Society and their precursors (McCarthy, Cohn et al), namely that "wars and rumors of wars vis a vis world-wide Comm'nism" being said here and abouts in our presence doesn't portend the projected outcome. Benedict being Benedict didn't change the outcome at either the crypt church service he presided over at the National Basilica, nor the Mass at National's Stadium.
    Secondly, before Dufford penned "Be not...........afraid" (allowing for the doubledot) there was another brother who constantly told His followers to chill about the small stuff. And then JPGreat made it his mantra as well. So, we got that going for us.
    Lastly- as long as we have a reasonable quorum of bishops like O'Malley, Sample, Chaput, Vigneron, Cordileone, Slattery, Burke, Ranjith et al in the mix, then we just might see more happening at OUR seminaries in liturgical formation and theological formation. Father Barron's holding forth at Mundeleine, I believe, rejoice and be glad!
    So, I'm jes sayin' what I always say, "Fine, think globally, act locally." But be not afeard.
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    What I have seen is a relaxation in places concerning Gregorian Chant, indeed in places I would never have expected to see relaxation 10 years ago. I think the younger priests in Detroit are much more open to Chant and those priests who are not enchanted with chant fall into several categories: Those who think rightly or wrongly that they cannot sing, those who have been worried they would be required to sing Latin and feel unprepared, those who worry their congregations will complain if Latin is sung and those who see all GC lovers as EF nut jobs who are always complaining and worse, sometimes actively try to impress/embarrass other less Catholic Catholics into being as "Catholic" as they are. Perhaps Pope Francis and his indifference to music is more of a boon than we think. As long as he does not ban GC and polyphony, and I do not think he will, we should be able to progress. He gives some priests breathing room while not discouraging those who would like more GC. I do not think we should choose up sides and bicker over what many consider trivial matters, most Catholics who care about good music at Mass do not care 24/7. Besides the Pope is already being criticized by the left, he is not their darling, (never was) any more.
    Thanked by 1redsox1
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Time will tell. Doesn't it always?
    Thanked by 1Ruth Lapeyre
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Not ranting, ok ranting a bit but, when I look around here (Ireland) I see priorities like this: The government is about to introduce the slaughter of innocents, which will add to the 4000 who are yearly taken to England to be killed, and though our Bishops speak out against it they are not making any moves to develop a policy of Eucharistic coherence and refuse communion to the aforementioned politicians... added to the fact that the gov is also planning to impose this new law on catholic hospitals, and it refuses conscience rights to medical and non medical hospital staff. Then there is the widespread use of the pill, and other forms of contraception. Divorce rates are rising. One third of children are born without married parents, and raised without fathers. Baptisms and catholic marriages are declining slowly, but atheism is growing faster than anywhere else in the world (latest survey) and bitter anti catholic venom is everywhere, especially the media. We have great child protection policies in place now, but that has not undone the damage of sex abuse scandals. Our already watered down catholic school education (the eucharist is 'holy bread' according to our bishop-sanctioned catechisms) is under threat from the government who are demanding the immediate handover of numbers of catholic schools to become secular schools. Oh and civilk partnership is about to be bumped up to full gay marriage. School kids are accessing porn, a large portion of the clergy are out publicly in support of women priests, divorce remarriage etc etc ...

    but Jesus is risen. In the face of this tsunami, where do we start?? I think we have to start in worship.
    So what are the barriers to worship? Mostly people are not converted. once they are converted they need skills to pray well.
    If it is your talent to teach people to pray well (ie liturgy with chant) please get on with it. Not everybody has that gift. there are other parts of the vineyard to work in, which are also of vital importance. Yes there is only one vineyard and everything is inter-related, but there are a variety of gifts, in the same Spirit.

    The last Pope among his many gifts shared the gifts that draw many to this site. Seems like this current one may major in other areas. Given the dire needs mentioned above I trusting it to the Holy Spirit.

    Thanked by 10marajoy JulieColl melofluent irishtenor CHGiffen ContraBombarde Ruth Lapeyre Spriggo Earl_Grey amindthatsuits
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Beautiful, thanks bonniebede. And yes for keeping things in perspective!
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Bonnie, it's so tragic to hear how Catholicism in Ireland, the "isle of saints and scholars" (insula sanctorum et doctorum) has declined.

    Hang in there, and I agree with you completely that the restoration of the Faith has to start in the way we worship. Remember that old maxim:

    Legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi. (The law of prayer sets up (is) the law of belief.)

    In other words, what we profess as Catholics flows from what we experience in the liturgy. The Church believes as she prays.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ContraBombarde
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Yep, please pray for Ireland at this time, as we are lurching towards abortion legislation for the first time among other woes.
    On the other hand, only a mere 5 or 6 hundred years ago we were down to 2 priests left in the country and they were in hiding and being hunted for their lives. I mean, many of you guys sing music older than that! And only a while later we were once again sending missionaries all over the world.
    Catholics in Ireland are resilient
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    I do differ from my fellow alarmists in that what I fear is a "trickle-down" effect, rather than the imposition of banality that others seem to fear.


    And what does the worry about this Butterfly Effect accomplish? There are no impeachment proceedings to undertake, no judicial recourse even if Francis does turn out to be a liturgical iconoclast (spoiler: he won't).

    All we can do is strive for holiness and work our hardest to bring about what we know to be the strongest liturgical direction of the Church. Let the dead bury their dead; let's worry about the things we can actually control.
    Thanked by 4Paul_Onnonhoaraton Adam Wood Spriggo bonniebede
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Andrew, if we take your advice, then WHAT THE HECK are we supposed to type about all day long on Facebook???

    ;-)
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Andrew Motyka Gavin bonniebede
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    PoJo: Beat me to it, dagnabit.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    "PoJo" and "dagnabit" in one post? Seriously?

    Is outrage! Eject commentator, comrade chonak!
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    1. If PoJo didn't want me calling him PoJo, he should have picked a Jesuit who didn't have the same last initial as he does.

    2. If meloCharls didn't want me saying "dagnabit," he should take responsibility for the word and use it more often himself. I'm just trying to make up for the relatively low ratio of dagnabit to non-dagnabit words on this forum.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Andrew, if we take your advice, then WHAT THE HECK are we supposed to type about all day long on Facebook???


    I'll settle for Star Wars memes. I hear cat pictures are pretty popular, too, but for the life of me I'll never understand it.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Don't forget about politics!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Don't forget about politics!

    image
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Discussing religion and politics with 5000 people on an open forum . . . what could possibly go wrong? (Not that I would mind, of course.) ; )
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Here's something new that caused a bit of a kerfuffle among us Long Island folks:

    This afternoon around 1:30 pm my son noticed there was a dark ring around the sun. We took some pictures because it was quite bizarre. My other son, of course, couldn't help pointing out that it was in the shape of an "O" . . .

    image
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    It's a wheel in a wheel,
    way up in the middle of the air!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Sun Dog?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Adam's right. Is your son named Ezekiel?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    No, we went New Testament all the way: John-Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mary Elizabeth Christian, and Anna. : )

    (I've always thought it was hilarious that my dear old traditionalist father-in-law insisted when Baby #5 was born that "Christian" was not a Catholic name.)

    P.S. It was Christian who saw the wheel way up in de middle ob de air.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    Rather than contextualize the Pope, maybe we should read his homilies. They are electric! And they're written primarily to be delivered to Church workers of all stripes.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Andrew Motyka bonniebede amindthatsuits
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Agree with chrism... reading him makes me feel happy.
    Thanked by 1amindthatsuits
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