"commitment to Vatican II vision"
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    What exactly does this mean? I've seen it on more than one job posting. While I'd like to think it should mean that the ideal candidate has actually read the Vatican II documents, believes in preserving the treasury of sacred music, is familiar with Gregorian Chant, polyphony, Latin, gives the organ pride of place, has a thorough knowledge of the GIRM and Missal, Graduale, and other pertinent books, sings the propers, and adheres to B-XVI's teaching of continuity rather than rupture.

    And yet, it is more likely to mean, "committed to the dissident vision of the so-called SPIRIT of Vatican II" which means abhors Latin, Chant and all things holy and will work to make people fee good about themselves by playing sub-par music that will inspire them at some basal, emotional level, but never challenge them intellectually or spiritually so as to not offend anyone. In short: rupture.
    Thanked by 1teachermom24
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm convinced it's disingenuos double-speak for "Can you be all things to all people practically, and not get P.0.'d about it?"
    And frankly, given the vagaries of a pastor's gig these days, it's all too human to hope for such a Candyman/woman.
    It should give every CMAA purest pause before answering the question.
    This "job," no matter how a pastor envisions it, requires a skill set that, nice person or not, very few will have going into the interview.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    What exactly it means is that I won't be applying for the job.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well then, Gavin, my young and much respected friend of afar, it will remain to you just a job, not an adventure (to borrow the the old Army cliche.)
    How does one reconcile the Christ who cared for His Mother to the care of his disciple, but yet also came to rip the bonds of a mother and father from a child (presumably because of difference of creed and faithful adherence), or the Master who understood why it was important to have his feet annointed by oil and tears of a sinner woman, but told the earnest young rich man he didn't have a chance of entering heaven?
    Unless you're Bill Mahrt, gifted with a very unique skill set, you ought to realize that your calling and your gig require you to instantaneously make WWJD decisions that, at the moment you abhor, but give you more time to implement the beauty and wisdom of the Church into common parish experience.
    I'm exhausted, I just did two Confirmations with Bp., who trumps the GIRM 24/7 anytime he shows up. It's just this simple: it's his (celebrant/pastor/bishop) way or look down the highway.
    Thanked by 1Ruth Lapeyre
  • Melofluent,

    While I understand the point you're making, I must most strenuously protest.


    Mass isn't about my understanding or my pastor's understanding, or even the bishop's. We receive the form and text of Mass from Holy Mother Church, and it isn't ours to make up as we like. (Of course, this realization is partly what makes me so happy that I assist every week at a Traditional form Mass.)



    God bless,

    Chris

    Thanked by 1Chris_McAvoy
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I'll say this: whenever I see words like "vibrant", "diverse" or "committed to the vision of Vatican II", I move on. There's nothing to see here; nothing new; been there, done that, paid the bills for medical and emotional treatment for the damage done to me at the hands of "Vat II visionaries."

    I'd rather be dirt poor and serve a parish that seeks fidelity to the received traditions than spend one more day convincing stiff-necked dissident liberals that the Church doesn't mean what they think it means when it speaks of "reform."
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I remember at a previous job being approached by my assistant (who ran the Children's Choirs) who asked if it would be okay if they sang "Danielle Rose's song Be God's." Not knowing the song and just hearing the title I looked at her with horror, thinking the title of the song was Be Gods.

    Whenever I see "the vision of Vatican II" I hear that song in my head.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    They might has well just write CMMA musician's need not apply.

    I heard Msgr. Wadsworth once say "The liturgy is something we receive from the Church and not something we make for ourselves."

    I love that quote. Anyone know if he is quoting another source or if those are his own words?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I've heard the same sentiments many times before, so it's hardly original...
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    It means there's a clear opportunity to have a conversation in topic that can be fruitful in terms of text and subtext. It's better than not having that clear opportunity. One thing worse than having no job is having a job that's an awful fit. If the only vision you have for Vatican II is your own (no matter how much you say it's that of the Church itself, something that tends to be in the cognitive-spiritual blindspots of liturgical musicians across the spectrum...), maybe it's not worth that opportunity. Otherwise, I wouldn't conclude in advance what the vision intended necessarily is; sometimes, we can be pleasantly surprised. Considering that God as revealed loves to operate by surprise, we should seek out opportunities where we might just be surprised.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    While I understand the point you're making, I must most strenuously protest.
    Mass isn't about my understanding or my pastor's understanding, or even the bishop's. We receive the form and text of Mass from Holy Mother Church, and it isn't ours to make up as we like. (Of course, this realization is partly what makes me so happy that I assist every week at a Traditional form Mass.)

    Chris, methinks thou doth protest too vehemently and, with respect, unjustly.
    Very few of us geezers who got game need schooling about the mystical genesis of the Divine Liturgy. Secondly, subsidiarity means exactly that when you're face to face with a cleric, and when you're not a cleric; particularly a bishop. Lastly, my friend and brother, I'm happy and mourn the reality I cannot also worship in the form I long for. (Go to my blog for that confession, if you need to check my pedigree.) But, I get a little testy when those who do worship in that most reverent of forms believe that provides them with a platform to instruct the rest of us on realpolitick in the OF world. I'm not the enemy for recognizing how things really are, and working brick by brick and step by step (quite successfully, I don't mind sharing) to re-solemnify Masses in our four parish merge for now twenty years of 43 total in. Bishop's been here just a year. He don't know me vewy well yet, do he? Hopefully he'll eventually want to.
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    Melofluent-well said. Thank you for that! It is a process that takes much time and patience.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I wouldn't disqualify it for that. Yeah, it's probably code, (and not very deep code at that), for the same ol' status quo. BUT consider the possibility that the guy looking to hire had to put that in just to maneuver around the current cabal of banality. You might find someone buried under the politically-correctspeak willing to start the conspiracy of Beauty and Goodness. :)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    the conspiracy of Beauty and Goodness. :)


    wow... we have certainly wandered far from truth... unfortunately the state of things, Scott.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Is that people conspiring to promote Beauty and Goodness, or are Beauty and Goodness conspiring with each other?
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    Well, if one doesn't have to put oneself out much for the interview, it might be a good evangelistic opportunity. Bring your copies of SC and MS, talk about Vatican II...you won't get hired, but the next job posting might be more honest.
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  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    ^ MJO... you do that way too often! (And I usually think if it was worth being deleted than I probably would have enjoyed reading it... ;-) )
  • I think that sometimes the committees that publish these notices just copy what they see from other search committees. I've been fooled by the parish "searching for a seriously trained musician, experienced in traditional Catholic music, able to recruit good singers and build a program." Nothing will trump actually examining the opportunity. I should have been more aware of certain recordings of Catholic Classics!!!
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    One of the clues to a music program is its library (if it is that organized....another thread perhaps). The library of music will answer so many questions that committees cannot often answer. I asked in my current position interview to see the library and they looked at me rather odd. But I learned a lot. Be careful what you read as Samuel has noted...
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    One of the clues to a music program is its library (if it is that organized....another thread perhaps).

    Kevin, I think that's been discussed, here:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/8433/how-do-you-store-your-sheet-music/p1
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    But the issue is to see what a parish has in it. I always advise potential committees and candidates for positions to see music lists and libraries to see what the history is. In my parish, I can see evidence in the library of one of my predecessor's Presbyterian roots. Another one was not a keyboardist, so there are multiple books of guitar scores. Its a history one would want to know. And you can tell of my presence because of all the Latin motets and French music (Faure, Durufle,etc) in the library. Plus copies of the PBC.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    If Earl Grey is indeed seeing this more than once maybe we should start paying attention. Never having come across the phrase before myself, I would have felt encouraged at this sly tweak to the usual "spirit of" and be eager to explore: is it the 'let a thousand flowers blossom' vision of dedicated music directors empowered to make the call that a Gibbons anthem, a Bach chorale or a Burgess gradual might be more apt than the Rossini propers? Or (more likely, but pleasing to my protestant ancestors) is the paradigm one of a singing congregation? I wouldn't necessarily write them off unless they had said "practice of V2".

    Kevin's advice to check the library is spot on.