Msgr. Pope on snobbery and liturgical music
  • He really supports mediocrity as a way of life...no, as a calling.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I can't put my finger on it, but something just doesn't seem right about what he's advocating. It almost seems like he'd want to throw out some of the best stuff.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    There aren't enough music snobs around.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    Never mind - -
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Appreciation for fine things is built on appreciation for other things

    Might be a little clumsy, but I don't have any problem with the sentiment. For the past 5 months I've been following a lot of your frustrations here, regarding what people want to sing in your parishes - I'm having some of the same issues. It's going to take time weaning the folks off of a steady diet of Haugen and Haas, and to appreciate something new and better.
  • Am I the only one who has ever genuinely wondered how an appreciation for the gift of fine music and fine other things automatically turns one into a snob... or... or... (gasp!)... one of those... uh.... elitists?

    This is not an epithet which we should be afraid of because, fundamentally, there is no logically tenable defence for the propostition that Bach et al. = snob-elitist. (Haven't we all known scads of people who love classical music and who would be nobody's candidate for 'snob'?)

    This is really a very very lame and intellectually challenged put-down.
    It's childish play-ground name calling.

    And, what does 'appreciation for fine things is built on appreciation for other things' mean? More illogic.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Let's just prepare the choirs and the faithful for the music the most recent council upheld as sacred music-
    ~Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony~
    and the problem is solved.
    Tack a vernacular hymn on before and after Mass if you like and all is done up neatly.
    Gregorian chant used in one sung liturgy has lots of levels for the simpleton and the snob in us all. From Gradual to basic responses, the whole gamut...
    The polyphony weaves an aural counterpoint through the chant for all to hear, the musical dessert of a fine feast, so to speak.
    The perfect and the good are not enemies. Gospel charity and liturgical obedience are not, either.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    I didn't like the fault-finding aspect of this particular column either. There are ways to talk about the issue without seeming to blame people.

    In thinking about Msgr. Pope's experience in the seminary, it seems that he could have drawn some different conclusions from it. When seminarians were more moved by the Litany of the Saints than by a Palestrina motet, he might notice how that fact underscored the importance of the congregation's "service music". It also demonstrated the appeal of plainchant.

    The point he did choose to focus on is a fair one, though, about the need to introduce more artistic music gradually, lest it seem remote and uninteresting to the congregation.

    Certainly there is support in CMAA for the principle of gradualism. The Church's approach to people in many areas is catechetical and developmental. It recognizes what is good in a person's unformed thinking, habits, or attitudes and seeks to lead the person to make the next good step.

    The esteemed president of our association seems to follow such an approach, speaking about even some rather bland music as "good" and referring to other music which is "better".
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Certainly there is support in CMAA for the principle of gradualism. The Church's approach to people in many areas is catechetical and developmental.

    Gradualism
            The act of using a Graduale.
  • Oh! And now we have a new word (neo-logism if you're a snob)
    Gradualism - the act of using a Gradual(e), or, the belief in spreading the practice of the music contained within it.
    and
    Gradualist - one who performs music from a Graduale (a Socratic corrupter of youth).
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • .
  • Isn't it up to us, as church musicians, to introduce our choirs and congregations to good music? My experiences are that people don't know what they truly like until they've heard a lot of it. In my parish, the thought of chant and polyphony turned many stomachs and the transition to this genre resulted in losing many parishioners and singers. As time is passing, however, and I'm not giving in, those that stayed are beginning to see the beauty and transcendence of this music. It's not snobbery....just a point of having to educate. If you provide beer and hotdogs at every meal people will love beer and hotdogs and not appreciate steak and champagne. But, if you wean them a little, they will eventually see the differences.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    Recognizing where people are and what is likely to move them (toward or away) is just good common pastoral sense. Also, he doesn't say anything like "liking finer things is being a snob," what he says is "insulting someone for NOT liking finer things is being a snob."

    The article is a little clumsily written, but his underlying point isn't a bad one.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    He sets up a false dichotomy, that the music is either Bach, Vivaldi, or it's the usual suspects that live in parishes across the country. There's a lot of ground between the two and most music directors aren't trying to go from fluff to high classical; they're just trying to get out of the fluff fever swamp to solid middle ground.

    There's an old joke that goes I'd rather be governed by a hundred names randomly pulled from the Boston phone book than by the entire faculty at Harvard. Likewise, I'd love to try an experiment where I go to several secular middle schools, present a wide range of music, remove the words and have them listen to the music itself and then have them identify in what setting this music would be appropriate. I'm willing to bet they would reliably put traditional church music in church. You can hardly call someone a snob who is willing to bet on pre-teens over adults.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    He could have shown them that both the litany and the motet belonged to the treasury of sacred music and each serves a valid but different function. Perhaps if he had been singing more motets all along, they would have been better prepared. We have to start where people are, but we also have to bring them along. The better should not be the enemy of the good, but neither should the good be the enemy of the better.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Nobody that I know of sets a good litany and a nice motet in opposition to each other. So, with no disrespect to Monsignor Pope, I do not actually know where he is getting this from----that musicians who use the Palestrina, etc., look down on those who use the litany. And I will admit, while I do not drink beer, sometimes I just want a simple ice cream cone (quality hymns, simple but good chants, and simple but good choral music) as opposed to gelato topped on to rich chocolate cake (complex Palestrina which takes weeks to rehearse, complex sequences).

    Speaking for myself, I would be grateful if I visited a parish which had the Litany of the Saints.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    +1 Paul and Dr Mahrt, well said. It seems he's trying to pit the two against each other, which is completely unneeded.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • In many parishs whenever the music director chooses a hymn that is not by Marty Hugen or David Haas, David Shulte they complain to the Pastor or make a comment to the music directly. Or when they pick a song for the choir that is either Latin or a little more challenging the first thing that is said the it is to hard and they don't like it.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    IIRC, the purpose of a "sermon" (or "homily") is to educate the faithful in virtue, based on the reading(s) of the day.

    So if the good Mgr. is doing what he is supposed to be doing with his preaching, is he being a bit of a 'snob' when migrating from "prohibiting adultery" to "...that means no artificial contraception"?

    ...which is to say, from the 'litany' of the Big 10 learned in grade school to the 'development' of the Big 10 into the polyphony of Truth?