"Banish All Guitars and Pianos from the Church" --- Dr. Peter Kwasniewski
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    francis, is that zipcode anywhere nears Peter at Wyoming Catholic? Have you shared music, both of you guys write great stuff!
    And of course, Wyoming gave us the one the only Dick Cheney, whom I regard as a true patriot. (Don't flame me folks, it's Easter!)
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  • I am somewhat distressed that people are jumping all over Francis based on one Mass. Many of the Bl.John Paul II's Masses had atrocious music. But that was part of his pastoring--part of his pilgrimage among the faithful to find out what the Church was saying through its people At the end, he published his chirograph on Sacred Music. The Pope cannot in fact dictate what music local churches use. The GIRM in Latin has a blank slug, essentially, with the capacious concept "whatever the local Conference of Bishops approves." But he was saying "I have heard it all. I have listened. Now listen to me..."

    I am shocked by conservatives who missed out on what an adventure JPII provided, because they were gnashing their teeth that he didn't knock heads together. That was tried in 1521. It didn't work out very well.

    XVI went to the same juvenile facility and probably had the same kind of music. The music at the Mass at Nationals Park during his pilgrimage to DC was not what we would want.

    May I suggest that you are handing the game to the critics? Francis is known to be punctilious in matters of doctrine and has fought the good fight in that area. (Hence, comments that he somehow wants to abandon doctrine are odd in the extreme.) He has even suffered for it more than we have, in the hostility of a very violent political movement (Peronism) and the way his fellow Jesuits treated him after his terms as Provincial. He FOUGHT Liberation "Theology"--so don't lump him in with that. Why do you think being concerned for the poor makes you a Liberation Theologian? Don't get it.

    What I most find frustrating in Sacred Music circles is a recurring feeling that we should be going for purity, when what we should be seeking is an encounter with Jesus and a giving and evangelizing--outwardness, not inwardness. We should be known as the most OPEN people in personal attitude in a parish.

    So this dismissive attitude will just give ammunition to those who oppose Sacred Music. We should have been awed by the sight of the Successor of Peter washing the feet of prisoners, not whining about the music in the back. The music in the Masses at St. Peter haven't changed.

    There is, in Sacred Music, rather a problem with the sorts I describe as pulling a handkerchief out of their lace sleeves and mopping their brows. It hurts, but we must follow the Pope in looking like givers, and not partisans and territory claimers.

    Kenneth
  • JennyH
    Posts: 106
    Kenneth, thank you for sharing this. And Paul, thank you for letting us know about Dr. Kwasniewski's work. These are exciting times.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Did you know that William Tortolano and Bobby Fischer are collaborating on a "breakout" session at this summer's NPM convention on how to accompany chant on the guitar?


    This actually sounds incredibly helpful. I highly doubt it will cause anyone already doing unaccompanied (or "traditionally accompanied") chant to start adding guitar to what they're doing. Therefore the only possible practical effect would be a few more guitarist musicians programming chant at their parishes.
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  • When I took over the music ministry a few years ago, I offered our guitarist the opportunity to stay in the ministry, but to pick, rather than strum. She was unwilling to concede, so I didn't use her any more. She left for another parish and took along with her the flutist and pianist. I DO NOT like guitars in chuch; however, in order for the transition to more sacred music was made, I was willing to compromise. It seems to me that those in favor of "guitar" masses want strumming and more P&W music. Sorry, but that's not happening with me and, like I've said on other threads, the "cold turkey" affect of changing genres was difficult, but worked.
  • I have to admit that there is such a cultural thing with the guitar that it poses problems such as the one you described. This kind of person wants a low level of musical skill for worship. In my last Protestant church, I played in a very good with band with a wonderful professional guitarist who could play anything. He picked. When we did Adeste Fideles one Christmas, I could not figure out where I would fit. This guitarists brother was an arranger and conductor for a major network, and he liked to quote what his brother said: there's only 100% of a song. So if there are two instruments, they only get 50%. So I thought and thought, and settled on this: I played four notes, an ascending arpeggio, in the build-up between the phrases of the chorus on my beautiful Taylor dreadnought, with a pick. The pianist told me afterwards it was so beautiful she was waiting for it each time. But that was it--8 notes each time round.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    Charles

    Yes, Peter and I are good friends and I play for some of the colleges' beautiful liturgies. Together we put in a Roland organ at his church. I would move there in a heartbeat if afforded the opportunity.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Kenneth:

    You are right, a priest, even the pope, going into a specific liturgical situation cannot specify the music, since it is already prepared.

    I recall , when our choir was asked to sing for the special ordination of just one priest, and he asked the bishop whether he could have us sing Gregorian chants for his ordination. The bishop's response was that it was his ordination, he could certainly have it. The bishop added that after all, this is probably the last time you will have any say in the music for Masses you celebrate!

    Musicteacher56:

    Concerning the requirement that the guitarist should play in a more "classical" style, that is a good start. Strumming can be pretty crude. Still, there is more to the question. It is whether the guitar as an instrument is suitable for the liturgy. The repertory of "classical" guitar music is, it seems to me, secular, and this association may even come with the instrument, regardless what it plays.

    I learned this when I went to a Saturday afternoon Mass in our parish and saw the distinguished former chant director at our seminary, an excellent organist, at the grand piano. He played beautifully, it was the slow movement from Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata. I heard it and said to myself, why is he playing this parlor music in church? It was beautiful, but it wasn't sacred, it wasn't music suited to the liturgy. At the time, this was a surprise to me, but its truth was unambiguous.

  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    mahrt:

    How true. Well composed music or even beautiful music doesn't necessarily make it appropriate for the liturgy. I think that goes for a lot of organ music too. Much of it after the 1700's, imho, is too schmaltzy.
  • Marht--I am against the guitar at all. But, the idea of playing in the "classical" style was the compromise at the beginning when the music ministry was all up in arms about the new pastor and changing musical genres. When they refused to compromise, I went full steam ahead with what I had originally intended.
  • "Necessity is the mother of all invention!" For the next few weeks we will be using piano to accompany our liturgies, while our "new" pipe organ is being installed. I'm hoping that we can be as artistic in accompanying with the piano as the theorbo player that we hear each year at the Carmel Bach Festival playing continuo in Bach cantatas!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    For the next few weeks we will be using piano to accompany our liturgies,


    Careful. People might like it.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Unfortunately, even (the now) Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI had at least one Mass which included, among other things, Muzak.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I had a three week period a few years ago when I had to use piano. A visiting organist (a plague on his house) left the instrument on for three days, and the blower caught fire. It was 1953 vintage, weighed several hundred pounds, and required an engine lift to remove. I now have what is probably one of the few pipe organs around with a timer switch that shuts the instrument off after four hours. Many people told me they were glad to have the organ back after it was repaired. No one, as far as I know, liked the piano.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Francis, I am curious:

    What is "liturgical" guitar?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Sidenote:

    (a plague on his house)


    I'm glad I have found people who talk like this.

  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    Paul:

    I use it to play Gregorian Chant accompaniments. (no strumming needed, just glissando rolls)
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