Habemus papam

WiesOrganista

I dunno. I'm thinking bring in the mariachis and put the organ on eBay.

J/K ;-)

redsox1

It looks as though the polyphonic choir is professional, the organ is a Walcker from the 19th century, and besides the link to CMAA, there is a link to Westminster Cathedral, London. I wouldn't be quite ready to panic.

redsox1

Oh, and a link to Notre Dame, Paris, too.

Scott_W

Unless he explicitly nullifies Summorum Pontificum, or starts writing encyclicals poo-pooing elevated liturgy, we shouldn't panic. The lack of Latin Masses in BA seem largely due to the fact that few have asked for them. This has been the same beef many of us had when SP came out--people thought Latin Masses were magically going to appear by fiat when in fact it requires effort by the laity to make their wishes known and support them. At worst I think the Holy Father will be laissez-faire about liturgy, which unfortunately means Bishop Moonbat's diocese will continue to have examples of liturgical moonbattery without censure, but people with their liturgical heads screwed on right will not be hindered.

ryand

Adding to the notion of Argentina being more "European" than it's neighbors, there is a religious order based there called the Institute of the Incarnate Word. http://www.iveamerica.org/ Their website at one point had links to Gregorian chant resources. Can't find it now but also not looking too hard. Doesn't matter.

I worked for a bilingual parish with 3 priests from this order, two of them native Argentinians. They were very traditionally-minded, particularly with music. The Hispanic musicians tended to play more "upbeat" stuff, but I was able to use chant EXCLUSIVELY for English masses. We used the ICEL ordinary and ALL THREE propers from SEP. When I would play for a Spanish wedding or funeral, I used Fr. Matthew Spencer's adaptation of the ICEL chants http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6631/accompaniments-for-spanish-ordinaries

Never a complaint from the priests. They loved all of it. A deacon complained once (he was whitebread, not Argentinian), but then he got reassigned and I kept on doing what I was doing. The congregation loved it all as well (or at least those I heard from). The only reason I left was that I just couldn't survive on the pay they provided.

Long story short, my experience with clergy from Argentina is that they are totally into traditional liturgy and music.

Adam Wood

That's a Mass explicitly "for children."

No. That is a Mass for adults who are confused about children.

The Left loves him.

This particular leftie is concerned.

(Not withstanding my imperfect-because-of-sin trust in the Holy Spirit and my attempted-but-not-achieved Zen-like detachment from such concerns... Miserere mei, Domine.)

Gavin

I consider him progressive. Not so far as he's going to ordain women and allow condoms (which it seems is all that some care about), but within the realm of legitimate Catholic teaching. Although I base that on what I've read about his time as archbishop, and the Pope is quite a different guy.

So what about his papacy so far? He abandoned the traditional garments for the announcement, and, IMPORTANTLY TO US, recited rather than chanted the benediction.

Benedict did a lot to improve liturgy and music around the world. It may be up to us alone to now continue his work. I don't foresee that Francis will stand in our way. But he's not going to give us the help that Benedict did.

On the balance, he'll do a lot of good for the Church, I'm sure. But we're now on our own to save the liturgy.

Adam Wood

It may be up to us alone to now continue his work.

Never alone.

David Andrew

Progressive? I think not.

Same-sex marriage? - No.
Same-sex couples adopting children? - No.
Abortion? - No.
Euthanasia?- No.

Some people may be a bit nervous regarding his take on "social justice" and "the poor", but remember, these are terms that the Left have co-opted and forced a secular relativist interpretation upon, which I believe the Church rejects. Church Teaching on this particular issue is far more nuanced than befits the overly-simplified liberal model, and one that goes far beyond the typical secular political definitions.

Agreed, his Jesuit background may make his particular ars celebrandi appear far less refined than Benedict's, but on the other hand I highly doubt that he's going to take a wrecking ball to the many important changes Benedict implemented with respect to music and liturgy. We can probably safely expect that he will opt for vestments that are very simple, and he may insist that ceremonials be pared down, but unless he actually dismisses the current MC, I doubt that the liturgies will lose a significant level of reverence, even if overly-simplified.

Clearly we look to the Holy Father to lead by example in some of these matters, but then again, we have to take a certain degree of responsibility for maintaining what has been built.

As Churchill said, "Never give up."

chonak

The Mass with the cardinals in the Sistine Chapel was offered versus populum (apparently not conventional there?) and had a Responsorial Psalm in Italian (I think) instead of a Gradual. Is this typical for Papal Masses?

Salieri

I believe it was until Benedict XVI. Benedict removed the versus populum altar.

Claire H

Thought some of you may be interested in this post:

http://holysoulshermitage.com/2013/03/13/pope-saint-francis-promotes-summorum-pontificum-of-pope-benedict-xvi/

ClemensRomanus

The orations were also spoken instead of sung.

Ben

Chonak, I don't think the gradual was used at all papal masses, just a few.

PaixGioiaAmor

Oh Good Lord ...

Think of the most "progressive" popes ... Who would you say? John XXIII? Maybe John Paul II (liturgically speaking)?

Didn't they sing gregorian propers at the basilica under them?

Let's say this guy is no lover of the latin mass ... So what? Do you really think someone of his orthodoxy will come in, publicly rebuke Pope Benedict by redacting his TLM permission, then gut St. Peter's Basilica of the pipe organ and ban latin and chant?

We already have a firm magisterium in place for what liturgical music should be ... beginning with the DOCUMENTS of Vatican II, and continuing through the teachings of Pope John Paul II (in his writings, not necessarily example), Pope Benedict, and numerous bishops in various places. The "teaching" on liturgical music is pretty firmly in place.

Long live Pope Francis!

Claire H

Anybody read my link? Reportedly he was quick to house the Latin Mass in his diocese. He may be simple, but that doesn't necessarily mean he lacks appreciation for reverent liturgy.

ContraBombarde

I read it, very interesting article. I don't think we have anything to worry about. The documents are clear about liturgy, and it's doubtful that Pope Francis will undo any of Pope Emeritus Benedict's works.

All in all, thanks be to God that Christ doesn't measure us the way we measure others. Otherwise we might all be cast into hell at first glance. I just hope we can wake up (all good faithful Catholics) and give the poor guy a fighting chance. He deserves our respect and support!

chonak

There's no need for anyone to be surprised when people look attentively at the new Pope's ars celebrandi. Some of us want to see what example he sets. That too is part of his influence, quite apart from what legislation requires or permits.

And indeed we should avoid any snap judgements; the pope is still learning how to pope.

For some aspects (the lack of singing, the omission of some genuflections), we have to think of the Pope's condition: he's 76 and has only one lung.

jpal

(Maybe we're past this already, but a quick perusal of programs for some recent papal (BXVI) Masses shows that responsorial psalms and Gospel acclamations were used.)

Andrew Motyka

I know I'm seeing criticisms of the music in the Cathedral in the videos above, but the optimist in me says, "What a beautiful Cathedral!"

CharlesW

I read that he is in good health, and in quite good shape for his age. I have also read that the EF is available in his diocese, but there is not much demand for it. Shocking news, I am sure, but everyone is not enthralled with the EF mass. Time will tell, of course, but do we have enough info about him to make predictions at this time?

BTW, Cardinal Egan said yesterday that the new pope is an opera fan, and has discussed the opera sung in New York with him. Doesn't sound like Pope Francis hates music.

I also thought the cathedral is beautiful.

Gavin

Apparently the Vatican (not known for its truth-telling) is saying that the reports of him having one lung are untrue. FWIW.

If it is true that he has one lung... wonder how the Orthodox would react! ;) (in reference to JP2's famous "the church needs to breathe with both lungs" reference to east/west unity)

CharlesW

Part of the east, unfortunately, is not yet willing to breathe the same air as the west. Much less so with the same lung. LOL.

Blaise

I can tell you that the traditionalists at Rorate Caeli are in despair

I find it hard to consider Rorate Caeli to be a legit part of the conversation when they quote someone else as saying that our Holy Father is "a sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass" , for "he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy" when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires.

Lambasting people, let alone the Holy Father lawfully chosen by the power of or with the the approval of God, is not a way to get your voice in the conversation. And yes, for the record, I do support more solemn liturgy. But these tactics I do not find attractive.

Scott_W

bonniebede

i note on his visit to the basilica to pray to our lady he ended by having all sing Salve Regina. That more than makes up for putting flowers on the altar in lent ;-}

Blaise

Much less so with the same lung.

Undoubtly much of the East believes one of the lungs to have been removed. Or at least exists with pneumonia.

I remember that Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow (Russian Orthodox Church) did not want Pope John Paul II of blessed memory to visit Russia on the complaint that Catholics were proselytizing in the East. Now that both Patriarch Alexy II and Pope John Paul II have gone to the Lord, I wonder if the current Patriarch of Moscow, Kirill, will permit a visit by Pope Francis.

To bring this conversation full circle, then, Rorate Caeli quotes Metropolitan Hilarion (Russian Orthodox Church) as saying before the conclave, "I hope that the new Pope is a traditionalist".

melofluent

Paul, maybe i'm mistaken, but IIRC Metropolitan Hilarion was virtually harangued and villified by his own parishioners in Moscow at his cathedral. That was clearly the result of politcal instigation from below and above. If P.Alexy was alive during that apoplexy and involved, I still and yet have no confidence in the institutional structures of the diverse factions of orthodoxy to promote Christian unity.

Musicteacher56

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI set down the ground work for us as musicians. Pope Francis will not take it away. He's got much more pressing matters to attend to, particularly the poor of the world. Let's give the guy a chance. To hang him before he's even had a chance to sleep in his papal apartment bed is ridiculous. I, too, was rather concerned after reading comments by Rorate Caeli, but then had to calm down and realize that the Holy Spirit does not make mistakes and perhaps has now entrusted us with continuing to good works of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI with regard to liturgical music.

chonak

It's an example of how the internet makes it possible to transmit misinformation around the world at nearly the speed of light! :-)

CharlesW

Another take. If the link doesn't work, the article is on MSN.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/03/pope_francis_to_lead_the_catholic_church_cardinal_bergoglio_s_election_as.html

Jeffrey Quick

At Rorate Coeli, the big claim is that the EF in Buenos Aires was set up to fail, because its implementation was so shoddy. Unlike them, I'm not convinced that this can be laid at the feet of Bergoglio; apparently the officiating priest was out of his depth. Perhaps some of their other claims can be blamed on him.But all I see there is much smoke and no fire.

Andrew Motyka

My specific gripe with Rorate Coeli, among others, is that they see SP as the only lens through which a pope or bishop should be evaluated. The second we heard about Francis, there was nothing about holiness, humility, charity, theological clarity, or any of the other things that Francis was actually on record as being strong in.

It was immediately, "But how is this going to affect meeeeee?"

I understand the desire to hold fast to tradition and good liturgy; I'm there. The complaints from RC et al sound more like idolatry to their specific form of the Mass and less like concern for the Church as a whole.

ryand

Agreed.

Scott_W

My specific gripe with Rorate Coeli, among others, is that they see SP as the only lens through which a pope or bishop should be evaluated

The are in a manner of speaking, single-issue voters.

CharlesW

I think, too, that a problem with those single issue people, is that they think what they are doing is of equal importance to everyone. It isn't, rightly or wrongly.

Andrew Motyka

I, for one, never get disproportionately bent out of shape regarding music in the liturgy. I can't imagine anyone here ever doing that.

Excuse me, I think I can still catch 11:30 confession if I hurry.

CharlesW

LOL

Paul_Onnonhoaraton

I would humbly suggest that the value of the documents by Pope Benedict XVI will be found in their content. Do they speak the truth? If so, they will endure. This will be the case no matter who is currently Pope.

bonniebede

I watched a clip of Pope Francis preaching at that childrens Mass. Although first i was concerned about the puppets and informality of approach, I then got a good belt of his preaching to the children. Now I don't understand the language but, it was not hard to see that JESUS was being mentioned in every second sentence. He engaged the children, clearly was catechising, getting them to repeat some key phrase to commit it to memory, loads of stuff that just got me so excited. I do want to see good music and good liturgy renewed, but also good preaching, Perhaps this will be part of his gift to the church?

francis

This may be an over generalization, but the liturgy is not the place for childrens catechesis... The home is. Children learn primarily from their parents, not from "preaching" on the altar. If priests and Bishops think they are making a difference by doing so, IMHO, they are being distracted. The clergy would do better to take responsibility for their adult flock and get them truly practicing their faith. That kind of challenge takes guts, time and commitment. PreAching to children is a copout, shallow and self aggrandizing. If parents are authentic in their faith, you will never have to be concerned about their children.

bonniebede

Francis, I would agree you on that in a general way. I think it is a big mistake to have these family masses on every Sunday where the focus in the homily is all on the youngest kids, ignoring the rest of the family - older children, parents, grandparentsetc who are starving to death for good teaching.
however, i think everyone should learn from the preaching, that is what the homily is for, and moreover the priest is the spiritual father of the parish with a duty to teach all. the catechetical value of the homily is to often lamentably forgotten in favour of entertainment.
The mass i mentioned, was clearly a special event Mass for children, not families, so they were not being singled out at the expense the adults, who were not in attendance. It is not unusual for a bishop to have a special group as a congregation, and in that context it was appropriate for him to take cognisance of the fact by tailoring his homily to the children who were in attendance rather than their parents who were not.

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